[OccupyComms] [Occupy London] Re: [rdwg] Debate about Party / Electoral Coalition Building ( while keeping our autonomy intact!!! )

Anna Harris anna at shsh.co.uk
Sat Oct 6 14:48:17 GMT 2012 

HI All,

Can we keep the D2015 debate a bit separate from the Occupy one, I think
there are different issues relevant to each?

Re the D2015 statement on fb: this is a good beginning but
the debate that is going on about it on fb feels very much like the point
scoring debate that goes on in Parliament. We need to begin to feel that we
are building something together rather than 'I'm right and you're wrong'.

b) 1). The aim - *to address the decline in faith in elected
politicians.*This decline is a reflection of the realisation that the
politicians to do
not serve the people. So our aim should be to *make sure that politicians
serve the people.*

111) 2. *They agree to adhere to the manifesto*.  This sounds like
candidates are being asked to 'toe the party line' whether they agree or
not. Opinions may change after the manifesto is created. We want people who
sincerely believe in what they are doing, not ones who act as robots.

c) i)* The integrity of the parliamentary system* cannot be maintained
until we acknowledge that people come before profit. This involves
*caring*for people in a way which acknowledges that
* this is what government is about*. (you notice the lack of women involved
in the discussion)
The following article puts foward policies which could be the foundation of
such an approach:
http://transitionvoice.com/2012/09/manifesto-for-a-post-growth-economy/

 iv) It is unecessarily insulting to call the population '*apathetic*'.
They have every reason not to want to be involved in the farce which
maintains the illusion that politicians are there to serve their interests.

Agree with Ben that politicians should be prepared to work for subsistence
pay.

More later,
anna







On Sat, Oct 6, 2012 at 6:21 AM, KIDD STUDIOS <kiddstudios at googlemail.com>wrote:

> I'm hopeless at navigating these email threads, sorry guys...can't find
> the original one now, though I read over it/replied to it earlier on.
>
> From memory, the criticisms of the Brighton statement beyond transparency,
> accountability and accessibility were to do with the "middle-class" focus
> of the policy debates over on the D2015 forum. I wholeheartedly agree and
> Brighton also seem to - will be looking for a more detailed demand for ways
> D2015/ a big coalition could become truly inclusive. If there are any other
> sensible crits/amendments to consider, please fwd them on to us, eh?
>
> I've had some ideas re: the whole concept of realistic ways of moving
> forward productively, inclusively, together.
>
> TBH I see the same problem re: "middle class" charge with Occupy from a
> different perspective. Whilst our policies have very much focused on the
> interests of the vulnerable, the underclass and working classes, our
> language and debates have become very much more middle/upper class sounding
> (intelligent, articulate, gracious) sounding. This has effectively
> alienated us from the communities we want to empower. The use of
> prohibitively articulate language & complicated concepts in
> "marketing"/"outreach" in the media, press, social networks et al has
> created an environment which "ordinary/normal" people find either a)
> boring, and/or b) pretentious, and sadly in some cases c) fascist.
>
> The last charge is the most serious one for us all to address if we are to
> move towards an effective campaign for real democracy. We need to monitor
> ourselves constantly for creeping fascism and actively fight against it's
> subtle influence. We need to be less judgmental. I was horrified when a
> squatter friend of mine with somewhat more experience in occupying public
> spaces pointed out that the camp in Brighton was going that way. We were
> able to militantly enforce the "safer spaces" Dry Zone for the first month
> or so, but in the end I was the last sober man standing on the tranquility
> team. The second month became a rapid descent into absolute chaos as we
> became overrun by violent alcoholics and junkies, (as predicted by my
> squatter friend)...the chattering classes retreating to their sofas and
> facebook.
>
> What I personally learned from the experience was
>
> a) We need to staff sober, reality tranquility teams if we want safer
> spaces.
> b) it's not about the drug/proclivity/addiction, it's about the influence
> on behaviour/the safe space.
> c) we ALL need to drop our prejudgements/preconceptions. We can't just
> make that demand of everybody else without acknowledging EVERYBODY'S right
> to be involved in the process.
> d) people with easily identifiable, disruptive behavioral issues need help
> more than ANY other vulnerable group. Making sure they get the help they
> need should be the responsibility of EVERYBODY involved in the group's
> activity...
>
> I propose we need to have a debate about drugs/party culture and the
> association with anti-social behaviour. Brighton is a party town so if it
> can be figured out anywhere we should be able to do it here ffs!!!
>
> IMPO Drugs policy should be a health not a criminalisation issue. a la Dr
> Nutt. We should have an amnesty for all drug dealers/users, preceding
> decriminalisation, regulation and formal integration with existing health
> care providers. Some people will argue for taxation, though I would agree
> to disagree with them...sticky one....
>
> These are just two examples of the inclusivity issue which needs to be
> addressed by forming sound "on the ground" policy re: the dry/wet zone
> issue, which has plagued all social movements and indeed society itself,
> forever. We need to take difficult inclusivity issues like the dry/wet
> zone, the GA process/participatory democratic models themselves on directly
> and pronto if D2015 are serious about their 2/3 year timeframe. Personally
> I think 2015 is an unrealistic target without quickly forming the ideal:
> the support of an ultimate coalition for authentic, real, ACTUAL democracy,
> by the PEOPLE for the people.
>
> Bit of a ramble, sorry. The gist is that the language/debates are
> presently not "trending". I'd like to set up/get involved with any existing
> Marketing/Public Relations WG if there is one. I've barely used my chops
> for ages and I really need to start integrating my activism with some fun!
> :)
>
> Thanks to all kicking these thoughts around...will RP relevant bits to
> Occupy Brighton fb & D2015 debates.
>
> Solidarity
>
> Ben
>
>
>
> On 6 October 2012 01:16, Tina Louise <tinalouise at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Think it interesting and keep hearing about it from different sectors of
>> my world... authenticity is really important and it is good to know that
>> you're looking into it. Will dedicate time to explore further when I can :)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 6 October 2012 01:23, marknbarrett at googlemail.com <
>> marknbarrett at googlemail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> **
>>> PS just saw this on FB group page, FYI
>>>
>>> Sneak Preview: D2015 Declaration
>>> Democracy 2015
>>>
>>> Declaration
>>>
>>> The purpose of this document is to outline the fundamental underlying
>>> values which the Democracy 2015 movement (hereafter 'The movement') holds
>>> to be foundations of how we (the volunteers) act and how the organisation
>>> aims to conduct itself. This document is not a statement on policy areas,
>>> nor a definitive explanation of what we aim to achieve. It is meant as a
>>> point of reference and a description of the way we act and wish to be
>>> understood.
>>>
>>> a) The problem
>>>
>>> I) The movement understands that there is a serious problem with
>>> contemporary politics in the UK. There are several areas which recent
>>> developments have highlighted.
>>>             a) Leveson Inquiry: the unethical links between Government
>>> ministers and the media.
>>>             b) Parliamentary Expenses Scandal: unethical claims made by
>>> MPs for expenses: abuse of     the discretion accorded by the public for
>>> reasonable remuneration when on public business.
>>>             c) Major dissatisfaction with UK politics and politicians,
>>> highlighted in a January 2012 poll        by YouGov.
>>>             d) A decline in voter turnout in the UK since the 1950s.[4]
>>>
>>>
>>> b) Our aims
>>>
>>> I) The aim of the movement is to address the decline in faith in elected
>>> politicians apparent in the UK. The way of addressing this is to create a
>>> new government of non-politicians, working from a consensus-defined
>>> manifesto, to undertake the governing of the UK.
>>>
>>> II) In practical terms the goal of the movement is to facilitate the
>>> election of members of the public to act as Members of Parliament in the
>>> formation of a government in 2015.
>>>
>>> III) The movement believes that these MPs will be bound by the following
>>> conditions:
>>> They agree to stand for one term only.
>>> They agree to adhere to the manifesto which is created following the
>>> completion of the public Policy Meetings.
>>> They are entirely transparent in the business they undertake as an
>>> elected MP. This means (but is not restricted to) transparency in expenses,
>>> meetings with third parties, schedule of local surgeries.
>>> They act in the interests of the people who elected them.
>>>
>>>
>>> c) Our values
>>>
>>> I)        The movement is more than simply a grassroots reaction to
>>> public grievances regarding the state of current politics.  Far more
>>> importantly, the movement aims to imbue and reinforce within the political
>>> system certain fundamental values which it believes will morally strengthen
>>> it, thereby making it as efficient and democratic as possible.
>>>
>>> i)        The integrity of the parliamentary system: Although the
>>> movement at the outset expounds no particular view as to how this system
>>> should work, leaving the possibility of structural and/or electoral reform
>>> for the policy groups to deliberate upon, the movement is unanimous in its
>>> belief in the need to strengthen the institution of parliament.
>>>
>>> ii)      Objectivity: The movement does not view any issue through an
>>> ideological prism as would a political party of either the left or the
>>> right.  Therefore, it is uniquely placed to formulate policies that are
>>> determined by the common sense of ordinary people rather than by the
>>> ideological prejudices of traditional political parties.  The country’s
>>> interests are not to be subservient to the movement’s agenda; the
>>> movement’s agenda is to be shaped according to the country’s interests.
>>>
>>> iii)    Honesty: Loyalty to the truth is a fundamental value of this
>>> movement for two reasons.  Firstly, in keeping with objectivity, a
>>> non-ideologically charged, purely evidence-based appraisal of the United
>>> Kingdom’s challenges is the only assurance of a truly rational, and thus a
>>> truly effective, approach to addressing them.  Secondly, this value is
>>> central to governmental legitimacy.  Indeed, honest politicians would in
>>> time gain the electorate’s respect, confidence and trust which would in
>>> turn provide parliament as a whole with a constant moral underpinning for
>>> its deliberations and decisions.
>>>
>>> iv)    Broad electoral participation: Noting a steady decline in turnout
>>> to elections since the 1950s, the movement, through its appeal to the
>>> general public to formulate the movement’s manifesto, hopes that this will
>>> be followed up in 2015 by a renewed desire amongst apathetic members of the
>>> population to vote in the general election of that year.  From there, we
>>> hope that such a renewed political interest amongst these citizens will be
>>> maintained in all future elections.
>>>
>>> v)      Transparency: The movement’s insistence that politicians be
>>> transparent naturally requires the movement to adhere to this principle
>>> itself.  Therefore, in all its dealings, the movement will answer in a
>>> straightforward manner all questions concerning the mechanics of its
>>> day-to-day working as well as all questions concerning its goals.
>>>
>>> vi)    Accountability to a broad public:  Although the movement
>>> recognises that lobbying is part of the democratic process, it is only
>>> proper that current guidelines regulating this practice be more strictly
>>> enforced than they have been or, if necessary, be revised in favour of more
>>> rigorous rules.  This is to ensure that unrepresentative groups and
>>> individuals cannot have a monopoly of access to, and/or influence over, our
>>> politicians at the expense of the interests and concerns of the broad
>>> public.
>>> Sent from phone
>>> ------------------------------
>>> *From: * marknbarrett at googlemail.com
>>> *Date: *Fri, 5 Oct 2012 21:48:16 +0000
>>> *To: *KIDD STUDIOS<kiddstudios at googlemail.com>
>>> *ReplyTo: * marknbarrett at googlemail.com
>>> *Cc: *<rdwg at googlegroups.com>; Josh Gartland<spiralfish26 at yahoo.com>;
>>> Julie Occupy<julieoccupy at gmail.com>; occupylondon at groupspaces.com<
>>> OccupyLondon at groupspaces.com>; lsxcampeconomics at googlegroups.com<
>>> lsxcampeconomics at googlegroups.com>; <activerdwg at googlegroups.com>
>>> *Subject: *Re: [Occupy London] Re: [rdwg] Debate about Party /
>>> Electoral Coalition Building ( while keeping our autonomy intact!!! )
>>>
>>> Hello Ben
>>>
>>> Your suggestion makes sense to me.
>>>
>>> Btw, did you see this Invitation to set up local meetings Shift Alliance
>>> (for jobs and climate):
>>> http://jobsandclimate.org/invitation-to-set-up-meetings-in-your-area/
>>>
>>> Also - for info I've arranged a provisional meeting with Andreas Whittam
>>> Smith next Thurs. Will probably go with Harpreet of IOPs and plan to focus
>>> on horizontality and transparency of whole project. And the ideal of an
>>> alternative coalition ;)
>>>
>>> Everyone feel free to message me any input.
>>>
>>> Have a great weekend everyon
>>>
>>> And pls don't forget to join and share FB event for next Wed Global
>>> Twitter Campaign #GlobalNoise at
>>> https://www.facebook.com/events/336606239769070/
>>>
>>> Great idea Vica!
>>>
>>> Mark
>>> Sent from phone
>>> ------------------------------
>>> *From: * KIDD STUDIOS <kiddstudios at googlemail.com>
>>> *Date: *Fri, 5 Oct 2012 21:12:50 +0100
>>> *To: *<marknbarrett at googlemail.com>
>>> *Cc: *<rdwg at googlegroups.com>; Josh Gartland<spiralfish26 at yahoo.com>;
>>> Julie Occupy<julieoccupy at gmail.com>; occupylondon at groupspaces.com<
>>> OccupyLondon at groupspaces.com>; lsxcampeconomics at googlegroups.com<
>>> lsxcampeconomics at googlegroups.com>; <activerdwg at googlegroups.com>
>>> *Subject: *Re: [Occupy London] Re: [rdwg] Debate about Party /
>>> Electoral Coalition Building ( while keeping our autonomy intact!!! )
>>>
>>> Are there ny objections to me reposting this thread publicly over at
>>> Occupy Brighton? I have started a discussion about the original statement
>>> proposal - (the one expressing cautious support..)
>>>
>>> I'm now thinking the statement would be stronger if it took an ancillary
>>> role in rallying all relevant orgs, rather than just D2015 - though this
>>> was the most obvious place to start. The discussion/crits/concerns voiced
>>> here would be useful to share/discuss imo.
>>>
>>> We have a meeting 2moz - how long should I wait for a response before
>>> assuming there are no objections to me sharing everybody's thoughts on the
>>> subject?
>>>
>>> Solidarity
>>>
>>> Ben (Occupy Brighton)
>>>
>>> On 20 September 2012 18:21, Mark Barrett <marknbarrett at googlemail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Here is the D2015 Newsletter as PDF
>>>> http://www.democracy2015.co.uk/newsletters/newsletter1.pdf
>>>> also available at their blog
>>>> <http://www.democracy2015.co.uk/newsletters/newsletter1.pdf>
>>>> http://www.democracy2015.co.uk/blog.php
>>>>
>>>> On 20 September 2012 08:18, Mark Barrett <marknbarrett at googlemail.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> hi julie and everyone
>>>>>
>>>>> to take forward a potentially important albeit fledgling debate on the
>>>>> andreas whittam-smith project, i want to introduce josh gartland from d2015
>>>>> democracy 2015  volunteer team. welcome josh.
>>>>>
>>>>> please note i have not subscribed him to the email lists as i don't
>>>>> want to overwhelm him with occupy london stuff so pls ensure he is copied
>>>>> in to any replies on this thread. aswell as julie and myself we also have
>>>>> ben kidd and anna harris from brighton and hebden bridge respectively, now
>>>>> subscribed on the list who are interested in this discussion about d2015.
>>>>>
>>>>> here is the d2015 fb group
>>>>> http://www.facebook.com/groups/democracy2015/#!/groups/democracy2015/
>>>>> to which everyone is invited to participate in.
>>>>>
>>>>> and some other links
>>>>> www.democracy2015.co.uk
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.independent.co.uk/democracy2015
>>>>> https://twitter.com/Democracy2015
>>>>> http://www.facebook.com/Democracy2015
>>>>>
>>>>> and to help frame the debate here is a statement that occupy brighton
>>>>> have put forward for our (london) comments.
>>>>>
>>>>> "Occupy Brighton (insert London, UK if/when apt) support the stated
>>>>> aspirations of Andreas Whittam-Smith & Democracy 2015. While we are still
>>>>> concerned by issues of transparency, accountability and accessibility, we
>>>>> applaud their ongoing efforts to address these concerns.
>>>>> We see D2015 as an opportunity to further Occupy's agenda from within
>>>>> the establishment, without compromising our anti-establishment principles.
>>>>> Occupy UK could meet D2015's need for regional representation, whilst
>>>>> operating as a legitimate watchdog for transparency and accountability.
>>>>> We encourage all Occupy supporters to investigate the campaign and to
>>>>> feed back their thoughts and feelings via respective Occupy and D2015
>>>>> comms."
>>>>>
>>>>> you can read the discussion, for what it is so far, below. i will also
>>>>> send their newsletter once i get it in a manageable format (it's too big a
>>>>> file to send to lists at the moment).in the meantime pls note that the
>>>>> campaign plan is for a series of democratically run round tables starting
>>>>> in manchester on oct 15 and then going to birmingham and london to decide
>>>>> values, policies and way forward. josh and others who i have met are very
>>>>> interested in occupy skills set / support in the process of running these
>>>>> events which as i understand it are effectively aimed at being assembly
>>>>> based initiatives ... :)
>>>>>
>>>>> hope to hear from other people on this soon.
>>>>>
>>>>> #solidarity
>>>>>
>>>>> mark
>>>>> ps if anyone with the skills is interested to support d2015 they are
>>>>> looking for someone to put a php forum on their new web-site, pls get in
>>>>> touch if you could fix that for them...
>>>>> On 17 September 2012 13:14, Julie Occupy <julieoccupy at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Found an article in The Independent - who seem to be leading campaign
>>>>>> . pasted below .
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My initial thoughts are :
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is a good development and indicative that a civil rights
>>>>>> movement for real democracy and constitutional reform is gathering momentum
>>>>>> with more mainstream support .
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Something similar happened , and is happening , in Iceland with left
>>>>>> field parties popping up for election
>>>>>> with a constitutional reform agenda.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I like the emphasis on time limited representatives from the
>>>>>> community and building a grass roots participative process .
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have concerns the  emphasis seems to be very much on middle class
>>>>>> representation - rather than broad based representation across social
>>>>>> classes , ethnicity , disability  , gender etc . I think  we need an
>>>>>> awareness of who our present political economy  privileges, and in any
>>>>>> movement be careful not to replicate structural disadvantage and
>>>>>> oppression .
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think the article vastly over states the power of parliament - but
>>>>>> maybe this is to build hope and momentum for the campaign .
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This new movement , and Occupy , are probably both actors in a pre
>>>>>> figurative movement for peaceful revolutionary change and as such I think
>>>>>> we should build links .
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In the "Pots and Pans and other things " documentary from Iceland a
>>>>>> women working on process for participative constitutional reform said this
>>>>>> can only work if the establishment feel and hear the pressure for change on
>>>>>> the streets .
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *How you can bring our ailing democracy back to life *
>>>>>> *Yesterday, Andreas Whittam Smith, founder of The Independent,
>>>>>> announced a bold plan for a new political movement to restore British
>>>>>> democracy. Here he unveils an initial manifesto for Democracy 2015 – and
>>>>>> explains how you can get involved*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Andreas Whittam Smith with members of the Democracy 2015 team. The
>>>>>> movement aims to return political power to ordinary people
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Susannah Ireland
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Related articles*
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    - *Andreas Whittam Smith: Our democracy is desperately sick. This
>>>>>>       is your chance to help save it*<http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/andreas-whittam-smith-our-democracy-is-desperately-sick-this-is-your-chance-to-help-save-it-8102862.html>
>>>>>>       **
>>>>>>       - *Clegg determined to drive through House of Lords reforms*<http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/clegg-determined-to-drive-through-house-of-lords-reforms-7447299.html>
>>>>>>       - *Peers and MPs reject Clegg's plans to cut size of the Lords
>>>>>>       by a half*<http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/peers-and-mps-reject-cleggs-plans-to-cut-size-of-the-lords-by-a-half-6285642.html>
>>>>>>       - *David Cameron to go ahead on boundary changes*<http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-cameron-to-go-ahead-on-boundary-changes-8015229.html>
>>>>>>       - *Phillip Blond: Electing the Lords would undermine its value*<http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/phillip-blond-electing-the-lords-would-undermine-its-value-7628079.html>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Fact One: respect for our democratic arrangements is in sharp
>>>>>> decline. We no longer vote at general elections in the numbers that we used
>>>>>> to do. We trust members of Parliament and the governments they form less
>>>>>> and less. Despair with the system was vividly expressed by the protesters
>>>>>> camped outside St Paul's Cathedral in London.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Fact Two: the politicians we criticise weren't parachuted into
>>>>>> Westminster from another planet. We voted for them. Once they were like us.
>>>>>> Now they have morphed into a political class. But they do not rule by
>>>>>> divine right. We could change them. The next election is due to take place on
>>>>>> 7 May 2015.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The answer to our predicament is not to turn away from Parliament but
>>>>>> to strengthen it. Parliament is as old as the nation. It grew out of the
>>>>>> great national assemblies that emerged in early 10th-century Britain. It is
>>>>>> part of our genetic inheritance. It is one of the things that make us the
>>>>>> country we are. And because we do not have a written constitution, the
>>>>>> British Parliament is unusually powerful compared with legislatures
>>>>>> elsewhere in the world. It could, for instance, repeal the Acts that ceded
>>>>>> certain responsibilities to European institutions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Moreover all the power that we citizens actually have at our disposal
>>>>>> is in the Palace of Westminster. So that is where people who want to change
>>>>>> things have to direct their attention. Or, more precisely, those who want
>>>>>> to change things have to secure the election of candidates to the House of
>>>>>> Commons who represent their views. And they have to do so on a scale that
>>>>>> counts. The election of a few stray independent members would achieve
>>>>>> little.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What is being described here is an exceedingly challenging task that
>>>>>> takes us into the realm of the near impossible. But in politics, the near
>>>>>> impossible can happen. Perhaps the near impossible is more frequent now.
>>>>>> Barack Obama became President. The Rev Ian Paisley and Martin McGuinness
>>>>>> became colleagues in Northern Ireland. We acquired a coalition government.
>>>>>> Unelected technocrats are now the Prime Ministers of Greece and Italy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The problem is that the entrance to the House of Commons is narrow
>>>>>> and access difficult. The established political parties largely control
>>>>>> elections. This is how parliamentary democracies work. It is their default
>>>>>> mode. And in a first-past-the-post electoral system, the old parties
>>>>>> operate with deadly efficiency. Their system is effective.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It might, however, be worked around. Let us consider how this could
>>>>>> be done and then what would be the essential preparatory work. Suppose a
>>>>>> large group of like-minded citizens could be persuaded to stand for
>>>>>> Parliament for one term only. They would have been pursuing demanding
>>>>>> careers, such as being the head of a large school or running a charity or
>>>>>> getting a new business under way or directing a trade union. They would
>>>>>> have done something with their lives, and have established themselves in
>>>>>> their communities.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Their qualifications would be different from those of the current
>>>>>> membership of the House of Commons. When politicians reach the top, their
>>>>>> "skill set" is limited to marketing themselves and their parties to the
>>>>>> electorate. Many of them are brilliant people, but there is not much else
>>>>>> they have experience of doing. Some 90 members of the present parliament,
>>>>>> for instance, have spent their entire working lives in politics, often
>>>>>> starting off in their party research departments. And if you then add in
>>>>>> occupations that, while filled with brilliant practitioners, do not
>>>>>> generally involve significant management responsibilities such as the law,
>>>>>> medicine, teaching and journalism, you have accounted for half the House of
>>>>>> Commons. Yet these people have a government to run, or hope to do so in the
>>>>>> future.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> However, when non-politicians who have run things whether for profit
>>>>>> or not reach the top, they will have become competent in a range of solid
>>>>>> activities, things you have to be able to do whether you are running a
>>>>>> business or a charity –creating new services and products, financial
>>>>>> planning, harnessing of technology and managing substantial numbers of
>>>>>> employees. As a result, they are much better equipped for the tasks of
>>>>>> government than the average politician.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There would be another difference. Professional politicians have but
>>>>>> one object in mind, winning the next general election. They are engaged in
>>>>>> non-stop electioneering from the morning following victory or defeat at the
>>>>>> polls until the next general election. They feel that they must do whatever
>>>>>> it takes to stay in office or regain it. The new members, the one-term-only
>>>>>> cohort, would be mercifully free of these distorting pressures.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Their task, assuming they were returned in sufficiently large
>>>>>> numbers, would be single-mindedly to put right as many things as possible
>>>>>> that governments formed by the traditional parties had failed to resolve.
>>>>>> Then these temporary MPs would stand down when their single term was
>>>>>> finished. As a consequence, they would have had to so frame their mission
>>>>>> that it could be completed in five years. That would have been one of their
>>>>>> promises to the electorate and part of their attraction. They would not be
>>>>>> politicians but they would have been elected in the classic manner. Their
>>>>>> democratic legitimacy would be at least equal to that of the present
>>>>>> members of the House of Commons.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> However, without making the enormous and unprecedented effort to
>>>>>> create a new, national vote-winning organisation, not a single new-style
>>>>>> candidate is going to be elected, let alone a sufficient number to
>>>>>> participate in the government of the country. And that is precisely why the
>>>>>> moment to start is now, with still nearly three years available for
>>>>>> preparation. But where to begin?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What is first required is participative policy making, lasting a
>>>>>> year, and using the digital media to ensure openness and legitimacy. The
>>>>>> purpose would be to discuss and decide what the next government should
>>>>>> do – in detail, with expert advice, not neglecting constitutional reform,
>>>>>> working in groups, capable of being boiled down into a series of measures
>>>>>> that the electorate would find attractive.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This would not be so difficult as it sounds. Ideological differences
>>>>>> are small these days, even between the established parties, which often
>>>>>> magnify what are in effect small distinctions to make themselves stand out.
>>>>>> The exercise would be unusual only in the sense that no difficult subjects
>>>>>> would be avoided, everything would be upfront and open, no surprises, no
>>>>>> hidden agenda.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then, as this work progressed, and more and more individuals with
>>>>>> contributions to make were drawn into it, and news of what was being
>>>>>> undertaken began to spread, it is likely that people would emerge who were
>>>>>> so committed to what was being proposed that they would stand for
>>>>>> Parliament to try to carry through the programme. They would see it as a
>>>>>> worthwhile public duty, not a career. But unless a start is made now, we
>>>>>> shall never get to that point.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *If ordinary people are to reclaim politics from the party elites,
>>>>>> ordinary people need to take action. This is how they – and you – can do
>>>>>> so...*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you would like to be involoved in our project and participate in
>>>>>> developing these ideas, please email the team at*
>>>>>> democracy2015 at independent.co.uk* <democracy2015 at independent.co.uk>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From your message, we would be grateful to learn:
>>>>>> a. The town or village where you live and the name of your
>>>>>> parliamentary constituency. That will help us to plan events and meetings.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> b. What you consider to be the government policies that most need
>>>>>> redoing. That would help set the agenda for the writing of a manifesto.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> c. How you would like to help. That could be either in thinking
>>>>>> through issues or in helping to organise the process. The two tasks are
>>>>>> equally daunting, and there is much to be done for each –for instance, in
>>>>>> chairing meetings, setting up groups, taking notes, contacting and
>>>>>> recruiting experts.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> d. Whether you would support the principle of making a small
>>>>>> contribution from time to time to keep the work going, a maximum of £50.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Our objective is to obtain a majority in the next House of Commons.
>>>>>> The members so elected would declare that they intended to serve only one
>>>>>> term. While I have described this target in The Independent as "near
>>>>>> impossible", as indeed it is, I cannot see the point of aiming at anything
>>>>>> less if the intention is to make a difference. The ideas below are
>>>>>> correspondingly bold.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What next? It is easy to point to the failures of the existing
>>>>>> system, but what would success look like? Our aspiration is that by the
>>>>>> next general election, we will have achieved the following:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. A group of candidates would have announced easy-to-understand
>>>>>> policies for the problems people worry most about, such as unemployment,
>>>>>> crime, immigration, care of old people, NHS, welfare reform, Europe.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2. It would have connected with the young and made them an integral
>>>>>> part of the campaign.
>>>>>> 3. It would have adopted a consultative style in policy making that
>>>>>> it would carry through into government.
>>>>>> 4. It would have staged primary elections in every constituency, 650
>>>>>> of them, to choose its candidates a year before the general election due to
>>>>>> be held on 7 May 2015. This would have enabled its candidates to
>>>>>> have spent at least a year working in their constituencies and become well
>>>>>> known locally. Constituency primaries would have been big events.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 5. It would have found a credible leader and candidates capable of
>>>>>> running the departments of state if elected. In other words, it would have
>>>>>> become a "Government-in-Waiting".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 6. It would have achieved regular coverage in the national media.
>>>>>> 7. It would have convincingly attacked the incompetence of the
>>>>>> traditional political parties when in government.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 17 Sep 2012, at 10:57, Julie Occupy <julieoccupy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Mark
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Could you put a little more information about D2015 Democracy
>>>>>>  2015on here and specifically what they are calling for  on the list .
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I can't access the Facebook page from my iPhone and quite a few
>>>>>> members  of rdwg don't use Facebook at all.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 17 Sep 2012, at 10:02, Mark Barrett <marknbarrett at googlemail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear Everyone
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This may have slipped you all by - or maybe not but the following
>>>>>> statement has been prepared and is supported (but not publically) by Occupy
>>>>>> Brighton. It relates to the question of the D2015 Democracy2015 initiative
>>>>>> of Andreas Whittam-Smith and others which you may have read about.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I met with some of the D2015 team on Friday, and there are some
>>>>>> comments on this set out below the statement along with words from Anna
>>>>>> Harris from Occupy Manchester who attended the Pirate Party conference in
>>>>>> London yesterday, and Ben in Brighton ( we all have somewhat similar - and
>>>>>> big - concerns but also a sense of real possibility via mutually supportive
>>>>>> activities hence our conversation). Both Anna and Ben are cc'd and probably
>>>>>> a good idea to add them to the main OL groupspace list so they can
>>>>>> participate fully in the debate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anna and Ben you may also wish to join the rdwg ( ie real democracy)
>>>>>> and lsxcampeconomics googlegroups which are also cc'd, open access and
>>>>>> possible sites of good discussion on this crucial topic.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The D2015 FB group is at
>>>>>> http://www.facebook.com/groups/149760215140893/#!/groups/democracy2015/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Please can people comment?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best wishes
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mark
>>>>>> Re Democracy2015 FYI / Response
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Occupy Brighton are happy with this statement - holding fire for
>>>>>> feedback from London. Would be good to get it out sooner rather than later
>>>>>> methinks...It seems D2015 are stalling quite badly and need help getting
>>>>>> their sh*t together.
>>>>>> "Occupy Brighton (insert London, UK if/when apt) support the stated
>>>>>> aspirations of Andreas Whittam-Smith & Democracy 2015. While we are still
>>>>>> concerned by issues of transparency, accountability and accessibility, we
>>>>>> applaud their ongoing efforts to address these concerns.
>>>>>> We see D2015 as an opportunity to further Occupy's agenda from within
>>>>>> the establishment, without compromising our anti-establishment principles.
>>>>>> Occupy UK could meet D2015's need for regional representation, whilst
>>>>>> operating as a legitimate watchdog for transparency and accountability.
>>>>>> We encourage all Occupy supporters to investigate the campaign and to
>>>>>> feed back their thoughts and feelings via respective Occupy and D2015
>>>>>> comms."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Conversation in reverse latest at top earliest at bottom
>>>>>> Hello Anna and Ben
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for the emails -- need time to reply properly but just wanted
>>>>>> to say on the Living Wage /Citizen's Income side - imo this is really good
>>>>>> stuff - i agree that CI and work related issues should be at the heart of
>>>>>> the project(s). Harry Shutt btw used to be working with the Occuopy LSX
>>>>>> Econmisc Group
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd only like to add that if assembly institutions (to be developed /
>>>>>> encourage by possible coalition !) could be linked into this, as
>>>>>> representative, watchdog and policy driver (as suggested by Ben) but also
>>>>>> with - in the context of work -  the position of horizontally driven
>>>>>> disburser of monies / other welfare services at the local level (in
>>>>>> addition to CI) then people could be incentivised to develop their work
>>>>>> life in collaboration with their neighbours / other local peeps ( ie local
>>>>>> institutions employ  and support individuals and groupings of individuals
>>>>>> to do what they themselves desire to to as checked and agreed by local
>>>>>> assembly of their choice as a new form of public employment ) so liberating
>>>>>> people from the humiliating doles vs crap job dichotomy and growing a new
>>>>>> community based economy.  and this could begin to tap into the Welfare
>>>>>> reform stuff as money while crucial for people's well being financially is
>>>>>> nevertheless presently not spent well  ( and we spend 180 billion or so on
>>>>>> DSS related stuff don't we?)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This stuff about the future of work should be a key debate at PP,
>>>>>> D2015 and also involving Occupy .
>>>>>> i blogged about it in a rudimentary way here
>>>>>> http://righttowork.org.uk/2011/07/real-democracy-and-the-future-of-work/apols if the post is so basic as to be basically rubbish but i know that
>>>>>> Anna and I conversed positively on this a few months back.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As i said the guys at 2015 were interested in a debate on work hours
>>>>>> ( i want a 3 day weekend - it just feels right as a bare minimum for those
>>>>>> that work conventional hours) so maybe this can all be linked together
>>>>>> under work which in the future must become dignified humane and liberaating
>>>>>> for all yeah
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Speak again soon sorry if incoherent massive rush.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Love
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mark
>>>>>> On 17 September 2012 07:24, Anna Harris wrote:
>>>>>> Hi Both,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One interesting possible policy which I discussed with PP is
>>>>>> Citizen's income, which there is talk of including in their manifesto. Not
>>>>>> everyone agrees, but Rik the swedish founder of the party, John and Harry
>>>>>> Shutt, who spoke on the economy panel, are passionate supporters. My
>>>>>> discussion with John about CI arose because he mentioned that 'full
>>>>>> employment is a thing of the past', which is such an expression of old
>>>>>> economic thinking. When challenged he was quick to move from there to an
>>>>>> understanding that our whole attitude to 'work' has to change.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Green party has recently produced a book by Clive Lord
>>>>>> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Citizens-Income-Foundation-Sustainable-World/dp/1897766874
>>>>>> I think if we took this as our focus it would deal with 'living wage'
>>>>>> mentioned by Ben without it being tied to senseless work.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I realise this would be very radical for D2015, but apparently the
>>>>>> present government has proposed something like a universal pension. Harry
>>>>>> Shutt started to tell me something about it. I will get more details. I
>>>>>> think D2015 needs to be prepared to propose something as radical as CI in
>>>>>> order to get off the ground, to tackle vast inequalities through a
>>>>>> restructuring of the basic economy. This has to be bold if it is to capture
>>>>>> public imagination. We also need to work out in detail how this can become
>>>>>> real, ie how much it would cost and where the money is to come from, which
>>>>>> may already have been worked out in the book. I will contact Clive and
>>>>>> Harry to work on this. It could be something which will bring together
>>>>>> Pirates, Greens, and D2015.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Love you both, Anna
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 9:38 PM, Ben wrote:
>>>>>> Whoa - lot to digest - sounds positive. :) I have some immediate
>>>>>> thoughts/responses, but need to wake up properly, eat some
>>>>>> food/reread/process all this and get back to you in detail.
>>>>>> quickly though cos it's exciting...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> re: middle class policies - absolutely agree with Anna. Fair rents,
>>>>>> Living wage are the two universally understandable/communicable big
>>>>>> carrots/incentives - Strongest UK policies to plug as far as I see it,
>>>>>> though obviously the policy problem is more complicated than a simple class
>>>>>> divide.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The reason the policies D2015 (and Occupy) are middle class is
>>>>>> because by and large the only people with any faith left in participatory
>>>>>> democracy's capacity for reform ARE pretty middle class. We need to
>>>>>> persuade the middle class that actually we should be focused on the
>>>>>> perspectives of those not yet actively involved in the debate: the cynical
>>>>>> Old Guard, the Working Class and our burgeoning Underclass AND the elite.
>>>>>> We need to persuade these "demographics" that participatory democracy has
>>>>>> merit before we can really move forward. This means the GAs/WGs will have
>>>>>> to be brilliantly organised with a focus on inclusivity and direct
>>>>>> action...one universal reason the movement has struggled to move forward is
>>>>>> the island mentality - combined with a scarcity of time and a reluctance to
>>>>>> risk wasting what time we have on futile ventures. We need more practical,
>>>>>> safe, fun and immediately actionable proposals imvho.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Feedback all sounds really positive from D2015 an PP - well done for
>>>>>> getting there guys, wish I could have come.
>>>>>> got to go eat, will get backatcha again soon
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Brighton are scheming for a GA on Sunday opposite the Lib Dem Party
>>>>>> Conf @the Brighton Centre - we will be discussing D2015, the Brighton
>>>>>> text...and Re-Occupy of course. would be greatr of you could help us rally
>>>>>> for it. Debate about tactics/press release here:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.facebook.com/notes/occupy-brighton/general-assembly-23rd-sep-2012-press-release-draft-11/409562975774780?notif_t=note_comment
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Much thanks for all you both do/have done/are doing - solidarity,
>>>>>> speak soon.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 16 September 2012 00:07,  <marknbarrett at googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Hello Ben and Anna
>>>>>> I'm writing to you both because you're the ones whose ideas and
>>>>>> comments I relayed to the D2015 people yesterday evening.
>>>>>> Ben is from Occupy Brighton (who have prepared a statement cautiously
>>>>>> optimistic and supportive of D2015) and Anna from Hebden Bridge, active on
>>>>>> the global networks and presently attending the Pirate Party national
>>>>>> conference in London. As both of you are top lovely peeps  do say hello if
>>>>>> you feel like a nice exchange :)
>>>>>> I met briefly with Andreas Whittam-Smith (the Indie founder and main
>>>>>> person behind D2015) and for about an hour with Will Wytham and Luke (not
>>>>>> sure of surname) from his young team of volunteers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> All three were extremely warm and keen to learn / get info and ideas
>>>>>> and constructive criticism on the way forward including possible stumbling
>>>>>> blocks in terms of possibly working with Occupy. Also they really
>>>>>> appreciated your input on the FB group Ben :)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They were definitely interested in possibility of an alternative
>>>>>> coalition ie maybe working with the Pirates, Greens, charities and so forth
>>>>>> as you've suggested Ben. They were also fully aware and concerned about
>>>>>> issues of transparency, accessibility and accountability (again, from Ben)
>>>>>> as well as the need for non-elite candidates, a less middle class policy
>>>>>> list (Anna), local assemblies as possible representative bodies and
>>>>>> watchdogs (Ben) and the global angle.
>>>>>> We discussed at length how there might be a fantastic synergy between
>>>>>> the grassroots autonomous and the party approach run on radically different
>>>>>> lines, about the need for local community engagement via Occupy style
>>>>>> processes, traditional door knocking and other new approaches including the
>>>>>> use of social media. I also mentioned the idea of running a populist FB
>>>>>> campaign for a 4 day working week to drum up support and interest and they
>>>>>> liked the idea of focusing policy on working hours a lot.
>>>>>> I filled them in on October plans, and -i/we/they noted their first
>>>>>> round table meeting due to take place in Manchester (and which they are
>>>>>> open to running on horizontal lines) is on the potentially interesting date
>>>>>> of Oct15.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As I understand it the round tables which start on the 15th before
>>>>>> continuing in Birmingham London and presumably tbc elsewhere will be to
>>>>>> work out a values statement and start the process of policy development
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They hope to send someone to the Pirate conference tomorrow but not
>>>>>> sure. I hope to be there myself but not sure yet as it's my birthday and
>>>>>> there is some pressure to stay with the family (from my 3 children and
>>>>>> partner) as you might understand.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> However whatever the case I think they will want to explore
>>>>>> collaboration so do please take that message forward Anna if you are
>>>>>> willing. And I will certainly call you to see if there's anything more I
>>>>>> can assist you with or maybe give you Will's number to pass on to a
>>>>>> relevant Pirate or perhaps get in touch yourself. One possibility for
>>>>>> coalition building is to convene and open spokes-council to explore the
>>>>>> idea and invite participation from Pirates, Occupy, Greens, other relevant
>>>>>> parties, pressure groups, charities / NGOs. What do you think Ben ?
>>>>>> From my side I will be sending D2015 a list of useful social media
>>>>>> platforms (plus encouraging a transparent email list or series of lists for
>>>>>> the project)  and also some policy stuff from Occupy London (policy from
>>>>>> the grassroots to drive policy  implementation from a new coalition )  and
>>>>>> hopefully will manage to get them meeting some good Occupy London people
>>>>>> next week or the week after.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Know I've missed stuff but that's all I can recall now.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> About statement I will remind London list to comment and let you know
>>>>>> what comes back. Anna will cc you in.
>>>>>> More later - happy to hear your thoughts.
>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>> Mark
>>>>>> Sent from phone
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From:  Anna Harris
>>>>>> Subject: PP Meeting today
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Mark,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Had a very useful meeting up with members of PP international today.
>>>>>> We had a walking tour of central London with pub stops. Rik, the founder of
>>>>>> the PP was there from Sweden. I learned alot about the other aims of the PP
>>>>>> which he says a very aligned to the Green party - as MEPs they work well
>>>>>> together. Eg they would support a basic income. Mostly young people, very
>>>>>> open to discussion.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tomorrow they will be looking at policy and trying to make decisions.
>>>>>> Much difference of opinion as in Occupy, but this feels good.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I mentioned the D2015 from the Independent. There was some interest.
>>>>>> What did you find out today? Feels like there is much potential here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anna
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mark: I am meeting with D2015 people on Friday.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And FYI personally I'm also cautiously optimistic, subject to similar
>>>>>> concerns.
>>>>>> Interestingly I've seen no discussion about this at all on the London
>>>>>> networks (although election politics was such a contentious topic back in
>>>>>> Jan-May in run up to Mayoral election as there was an attempt to co-opt
>>>>>> Occupy London so for that reason alone I'm not surprised) but I was going
>>>>>> to raise it this week if no-one else did so your mail is timely. One D2015
>>>>>> person has already indicated he wants to attend an Occupy London meeting so
>>>>>> it's important this gets handled carefully. Personally am
>>>>>> really happy Brighton is on it. But do hold fire ..
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I will write again later today as soon as I get a moment to read your
>>>>>> mail properly and reflect.
>>>>>> Cheers'
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Brighton contact:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 're: lack of discussion on Occupy comms - I think this could be a
>>>>>> good thing - if D2015 is intended to function as a distraction/co-opt
>>>>>> Occupy would do well to ignore/not divert attention.
>>>>>> That said, we seem to be on the same page re: reserving
>>>>>> judgement/cautious optimism.
>>>>>> Brighton will hold fire on releasing the statement until we hear back
>>>>>> from your good self/other London bods.
>>>>>> Speak soon,'
>>>>>> Me:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 'Don't get the sense it's an attempt to co-opt but there is a danger
>>>>>> it could divert by neutering that aspect of Occupy concerned to build new
>>>>>> democratic institutions. One particular comment by AWS about his concern re
>>>>>> people losing faith in our existing institutions (rather than getting into
>>>>>> them and sorting them out) stood out to me.
>>>>>> Personally I think we need both (new local and regional institutions
>>>>>> as-well as a transformation driven by the grass-roots of the old ones) and
>>>>>> I do get the feeling this is a possibility through the politics of D2015
>>>>>> combined with Occupy as the Brighton text maintains.
>>>>>> And the concerns about transparency etc identified in the Brighton
>>>>>> text go with this for me.
>>>>>> On first v cursory read would add 'local' to the bit about regional
>>>>>> representation or is that a direct reference to the 2015 statements.
>>>>>> Probably will mail some other London people about it later today off
>>>>>> list did you already mail a few others ?
>>>>>> Will write again asap.'
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 'Agree on all your points. No opinion on  "regional" vs "local".
>>>>>> I haven't mailed too many bods yet as I have been concerned about
>>>>>> D2015 as a distraction from our efforts to reOccupy in October.
>>>>>> Ideally I would like to fold the two efforts into each other if
>>>>>> poss....Brighton are hoping to be organised in time for GAs/open planning
>>>>>> meetings to coincide the Lib Dem conference 22nd-26th.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I got in touch with you as you seemed to be the most active on Occupy
>>>>>> comms on our webmail - have only consulted re: D2015with my "circle of
>>>>>> trust" in Brighton & Worthing, also with Occupy London via fb.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We are holding fire until we hear back from everyone we've spoken
>>>>>> with already - it occurs that perhaps we should wait until D2015 have their
>>>>>> infrastructure/relaunch materials sorted?
>>>>>> Cheers fer getting back to us, - are you the same Mark who visited us
>>>>>> with the kind offer of "activist counseling" when we are all burning out
>>>>>> last year btw?
>>>>>> Speak soon - do keep us updated'
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Will reply in a bit to this last one to say the post is now on the
>>>>>> London email list and that it's probably Mark Weaver our friend is
>>>>>> referring to!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Apathy is Dead !
>>>>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/solarider/5254770064/#/photos/solarider/5254770064/lightbox/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Apathy is Dead !
>>>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/solarider/5254770064/#/photos/solarider/5254770064/lightbox/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Apathy is Dead !
>>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/solarider/5254770064/#/photos/solarider/5254770064/lightbox/
>>>>
>>>>   --
>>>>
>>>> Friendly reminder: please keep these mailing list discussions to a
>>>> minimum as they reach a lot of people. Instead you can email working groups
>>>> and individuals directly, or use the Occupy London forum at
>>>> occupylondon . info<http://e.groupspaces.com/click/2foa8-4amu2-3w9ron76x?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.occupylondon.info%2F>
>>>>
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>>>> Manage your group membership<http://e.groupspaces.com/click/2foa8-4amu2-3w9ron76x?u=http%3A%2F%2Fgroupspaces.com%2Fmy%2Faccount%2F%3Futm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dgroup-listmail%26utm_term%3Dgroup-listmail-64715>or
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>>>> .
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
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>>>
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>>>
>>>   --
>>>
>>> Friendly reminder: please keep these mailing list discussions to a
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>>> and individuals directly, or use the Occupy London forum at occupylondon
>>> . info<http://e.groupspaces.com/click/2hxk6-2rx0r-lhmryzxtn?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.occupylondon.info%2F>
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>>> Manage your group membership<http://e.groupspaces.com/click/2hxk6-2rx0r-lhmryzxtn?u=http%3A%2F%2Fgroupspaces.com%2Fmy%2Faccount%2F%3Futm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dgroup-listmail%26utm_term%3Dgroup-listmail-64715>or
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>>> .
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>>
>>
>
>
> --
> KIDD STUDIOS - Quality Audio Recordings
>
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>
>   --
>
> Friendly reminder: please keep these mailing list discussions to a minimum
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> individuals directly, or use the Occupy London forum at occupylondon .
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