[OccupyComms] [Occupy London] Re: [rdwg] Debate about Party / Electoral Coalition Building ( while keeping our autonomy intact!!! )
Mark Barrett
marknbarrett at googlemail.com
Sat Oct 6 07:04:58 GMT 2012
Thanks for the input Ben and Tina :)
On 6 October 2012 06:21, KIDD STUDIOS <kiddstudios at googlemail.com> wrote:
> I'm hopeless at navigating these email threads, sorry guys...can't find
> the original one now, though I read over it/replied to it earlier on.
>
> From memory, the criticisms of the Brighton statement beyond transparency,
> accountability and accessibility were to do with the "middle-class" focus
> of the policy debates over on the D2015 forum. I wholeheartedly agree and
> Brighton also seem to - will be looking for a more detailed demand for ways
> D2015/ a big coalition could become truly inclusive. If there are any other
> sensible crits/amendments to consider, please fwd them on to us, eh?
>
> I've had some ideas re: the whole concept of realistic ways of moving
> forward productively, inclusively, together.
>
> TBH I see the same problem re: "middle class" charge with Occupy from a
> different perspective. Whilst our policies have very much focused on the
> interests of the vulnerable, the underclass and working classes, our
> language and debates have become very much more middle/upper class sounding
> (intelligent, articulate, gracious) sounding. This has effectively
> alienated us from the communities we want to empower. The use of
> prohibitively articulate language & complicated concepts in
> "marketing"/"outreach" in the media, press, social networks et al has
> created an environment which "ordinary/normal" people find either a)
> boring, and/or b) pretentious, and sadly in some cases c) fascist.
>
> The last charge is the most serious one for us all to address if we are to
> move towards an effective campaign for real democracy. We need to monitor
> ourselves constantly for creeping fascism and actively fight against it's
> subtle influence. We need to be less judgmental. I was horrified when a
> squatter friend of mine with somewhat more experience in occupying public
> spaces pointed out that the camp in Brighton was going that way. We were
> able to militantly enforce the "safer spaces" Dry Zone for the first month
> or so, but in the end I was the last sober man standing on the tranquility
> team. The second month became a rapid descent into absolute chaos as we
> became overrun by violent alcoholics and junkies, (as predicted by my
> squatter friend)...the chattering classes retreating to their sofas and
> facebook.
>
> What I personally learned from the experience was
>
> a) We need to staff sober, reality tranquility teams if we want safer
> spaces.
> b) it's not about the drug/proclivity/addiction, it's about the influence
> on behaviour/the safe space.
> c) we ALL need to drop our prejudgements/preconceptions. We can't just
> make that demand of everybody else without acknowledging EVERYBODY'S right
> to be involved in the process.
> d) people with easily identifiable, disruptive behavioral issues need help
> more than ANY other vulnerable group. Making sure they get the help they
> need should be the responsibility of EVERYBODY involved in the group's
> activity...
>
> I propose we need to have a debate about drugs/party culture and the
> association with anti-social behaviour. Brighton is a party town so if it
> can be figured out anywhere we should be able to do it here ffs!!!
>
> IMPO Drugs policy should be a health not a criminalisation issue. a la Dr
> Nutt. We should have an amnesty for all drug dealers/users, preceding
> decriminalisation, regulation and formal integration with existing health
> care providers. Some people will argue for taxation, though I would agree
> to disagree with them...sticky one....
>
> These are just two examples of the inclusivity issue which needs to be
> addressed by forming sound "on the ground" policy re: the dry/wet zone
> issue, which has plagued all social movements and indeed society itself,
> forever. We need to take difficult inclusivity issues like the dry/wet
> zone, the GA process/participatory democratic models themselves on directly
> and pronto if D2015 are serious about their 2/3 year timeframe. Personally
> I think 2015 is an unrealistic target without quickly forming the ideal:
> the support of an ultimate coalition for authentic, real, ACTUAL democracy,
> by the PEOPLE for the people.
>
> Bit of a ramble, sorry. The gist is that the language/debates are
> presently not "trending". I'd like to set up/get involved with any existing
> Marketing/Public Relations WG if there is one. I've barely used my chops
> for ages and I really need to start integrating my activism with some fun!
> :)
>
> Thanks to all kicking these thoughts around...will RP relevant bits to
> Occupy Brighton fb & D2015 debates.
>
> Solidarity
>
> Ben
>
>
>
> On 6 October 2012 01:16, Tina Louise <tinalouise at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Think it interesting and keep hearing about it from different sectors of
>> my world... authenticity is really important and it is good to know that
>> you're looking into it. Will dedicate time to explore further when I can :)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 6 October 2012 01:23, marknbarrett at googlemail.com <
>> marknbarrett at googlemail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> **
>>> PS just saw this on FB group page, FYI
>>>
>>> Sneak Preview: D2015 Declaration
>>> Democracy 2015
>>>
>>> Declaration
>>>
>>> The purpose of this document is to outline the fundamental underlying
>>> values which the Democracy 2015 movement (hereafter 'The movement') holds
>>> to be foundations of how we (the volunteers) act and how the organisation
>>> aims to conduct itself. This document is not a statement on policy areas,
>>> nor a definitive explanation of what we aim to achieve. It is meant as a
>>> point of reference and a description of the way we act and wish to be
>>> understood.
>>>
>>> a) The problem
>>>
>>> I) The movement understands that there is a serious problem with
>>> contemporary politics in the UK. There are several areas which recent
>>> developments have highlighted.
>>> a) Leveson Inquiry: the unethical links between Government
>>> ministers and the media.
>>> b) Parliamentary Expenses Scandal: unethical claims made by
>>> MPs for expenses: abuse of the discretion accorded by the public for
>>> reasonable remuneration when on public business.
>>> c) Major dissatisfaction with UK politics and politicians,
>>> highlighted in a January 2012 poll by YouGov.
>>> d) A decline in voter turnout in the UK since the 1950s.[4]
>>>
>>>
>>> b) Our aims
>>>
>>> I) The aim of the movement is to address the decline in faith in elected
>>> politicians apparent in the UK. The way of addressing this is to create a
>>> new government of non-politicians, working from a consensus-defined
>>> manifesto, to undertake the governing of the UK.
>>>
>>> II) In practical terms the goal of the movement is to facilitate the
>>> election of members of the public to act as Members of Parliament in the
>>> formation of a government in 2015.
>>>
>>> III) The movement believes that these MPs will be bound by the following
>>> conditions:
>>> They agree to stand for one term only.
>>> They agree to adhere to the manifesto which is created following the
>>> completion of the public Policy Meetings.
>>> They are entirely transparent in the business they undertake as an
>>> elected MP. This means (but is not restricted to) transparency in expenses,
>>> meetings with third parties, schedule of local surgeries.
>>> They act in the interests of the people who elected them.
>>>
>>>
>>> c) Our values
>>>
>>> I) The movement is more than simply a grassroots reaction to
>>> public grievances regarding the state of current politics. Far more
>>> importantly, the movement aims to imbue and reinforce within the political
>>> system certain fundamental values which it believes will morally strengthen
>>> it, thereby making it as efficient and democratic as possible.
>>>
>>> i) The integrity of the parliamentary system: Although the
>>> movement at the outset expounds no particular view as to how this system
>>> should work, leaving the possibility of structural and/or electoral reform
>>> for the policy groups to deliberate upon, the movement is unanimous in its
>>> belief in the need to strengthen the institution of parliament.
>>>
>>> ii) Objectivity: The movement does not view any issue through an
>>> ideological prism as would a political party of either the left or the
>>> right. Therefore, it is uniquely placed to formulate policies that are
>>> determined by the common sense of ordinary people rather than by the
>>> ideological prejudices of traditional political parties. The country’s
>>> interests are not to be subservient to the movement’s agenda; the
>>> movement’s agenda is to be shaped according to the country’s interests.
>>>
>>> iii) Honesty: Loyalty to the truth is a fundamental value of this
>>> movement for two reasons. Firstly, in keeping with objectivity, a
>>> non-ideologically charged, purely evidence-based appraisal of the United
>>> Kingdom’s challenges is the only assurance of a truly rational, and thus a
>>> truly effective, approach to addressing them. Secondly, this value is
>>> central to governmental legitimacy. Indeed, honest politicians would in
>>> time gain the electorate’s respect, confidence and trust which would in
>>> turn provide parliament as a whole with a constant moral underpinning for
>>> its deliberations and decisions.
>>>
>>> iv) Broad electoral participation: Noting a steady decline in turnout
>>> to elections since the 1950s, the movement, through its appeal to the
>>> general public to formulate the movement’s manifesto, hopes that this will
>>> be followed up in 2015 by a renewed desire amongst apathetic members of the
>>> population to vote in the general election of that year. From there, we
>>> hope that such a renewed political interest amongst these citizens will be
>>> maintained in all future elections.
>>>
>>> v) Transparency: The movement’s insistence that politicians be
>>> transparent naturally requires the movement to adhere to this principle
>>> itself. Therefore, in all its dealings, the movement will answer in a
>>> straightforward manner all questions concerning the mechanics of its
>>> day-to-day working as well as all questions concerning its goals.
>>>
>>> vi) Accountability to a broad public: Although the movement
>>> recognises that lobbying is part of the democratic process, it is only
>>> proper that current guidelines regulating this practice be more strictly
>>> enforced than they have been or, if necessary, be revised in favour of more
>>> rigorous rules. This is to ensure that unrepresentative groups and
>>> individuals cannot have a monopoly of access to, and/or influence over, our
>>> politicians at the expense of the interests and concerns of the broad
>>> public.
>>> Sent from phone
>>> ------------------------------
>>> *From: * marknbarrett at googlemail.com
>>> *Date: *Fri, 5 Oct 2012 21:48:16 +0000
>>> *To: *KIDD STUDIOS<kiddstudios at googlemail.com>
>>> *ReplyTo: * marknbarrett at googlemail.com
>>> *Cc: *<rdwg at googlegroups.com>; Josh Gartland<spiralfish26 at yahoo.com>;
>>> Julie Occupy<julieoccupy at gmail.com>; occupylondon at groupspaces.com<
>>> OccupyLondon at groupspaces.com>; lsxcampeconomics at googlegroups.com<
>>> lsxcampeconomics at googlegroups.com>; <activerdwg at googlegroups.com>
>>> *Subject: *Re: [Occupy London] Re: [rdwg] Debate about Party /
>>> Electoral Coalition Building ( while keeping our autonomy intact!!! )
>>>
>>> Hello Ben
>>>
>>> Your suggestion makes sense to me.
>>>
>>> Btw, did you see this Invitation to set up local meetings Shift Alliance
>>> (for jobs and climate):
>>> http://jobsandclimate.org/invitation-to-set-up-meetings-in-your-area/
>>>
>>> Also - for info I've arranged a provisional meeting with Andreas Whittam
>>> Smith next Thurs. Will probably go with Harpreet of IOPs and plan to focus
>>> on horizontality and transparency of whole project. And the ideal of an
>>> alternative coalition ;)
>>>
>>> Everyone feel free to message me any input.
>>>
>>> Have a great weekend everyon
>>>
>>> And pls don't forget to join and share FB event for next Wed Global
>>> Twitter Campaign #GlobalNoise at
>>> https://www.facebook.com/events/336606239769070/
>>>
>>> Great idea Vica!
>>>
>>> Mark
>>> Sent from phone
>>> ------------------------------
>>> *From: * KIDD STUDIOS <kiddstudios at googlemail.com>
>>> *Date: *Fri, 5 Oct 2012 21:12:50 +0100
>>> *To: *<marknbarrett at googlemail.com>
>>> *Cc: *<rdwg at googlegroups.com>; Josh Gartland<spiralfish26 at yahoo.com>;
>>> Julie Occupy<julieoccupy at gmail.com>; occupylondon at groupspaces.com<
>>> OccupyLondon at groupspaces.com>; lsxcampeconomics at googlegroups.com<
>>> lsxcampeconomics at googlegroups.com>; <activerdwg at googlegroups.com>
>>> *Subject: *Re: [Occupy London] Re: [rdwg] Debate about Party /
>>> Electoral Coalition Building ( while keeping our autonomy intact!!! )
>>>
>>> Are there ny objections to me reposting this thread publicly over at
>>> Occupy Brighton? I have started a discussion about the original statement
>>> proposal - (the one expressing cautious support..)
>>>
>>> I'm now thinking the statement would be stronger if it took an ancillary
>>> role in rallying all relevant orgs, rather than just D2015 - though this
>>> was the most obvious place to start. The discussion/crits/concerns voiced
>>> here would be useful to share/discuss imo.
>>>
>>> We have a meeting 2moz - how long should I wait for a response before
>>> assuming there are no objections to me sharing everybody's thoughts on the
>>> subject?
>>>
>>> Solidarity
>>>
>>> Ben (Occupy Brighton)
>>>
>>> On 20 September 2012 18:21, Mark Barrett <marknbarrett at googlemail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Here is the D2015 Newsletter as PDF
>>>> http://www.democracy2015.co.uk/newsletters/newsletter1.pdf
>>>> also available at their blog
>>>> <http://www.democracy2015.co.uk/newsletters/newsletter1.pdf>
>>>> http://www.democracy2015.co.uk/blog.php
>>>>
>>>> On 20 September 2012 08:18, Mark Barrett <marknbarrett at googlemail.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> hi julie and everyone
>>>>>
>>>>> to take forward a potentially important albeit fledgling debate on the
>>>>> andreas whittam-smith project, i want to introduce josh gartland from d2015
>>>>> democracy 2015 volunteer team. welcome josh.
>>>>>
>>>>> please note i have not subscribed him to the email lists as i don't
>>>>> want to overwhelm him with occupy london stuff so pls ensure he is copied
>>>>> in to any replies on this thread. aswell as julie and myself we also have
>>>>> ben kidd and anna harris from brighton and hebden bridge respectively, now
>>>>> subscribed on the list who are interested in this discussion about d2015.
>>>>>
>>>>> here is the d2015 fb group
>>>>> http://www.facebook.com/groups/democracy2015/#!/groups/democracy2015/
>>>>> to which everyone is invited to participate in.
>>>>>
>>>>> and some other links
>>>>> www.democracy2015.co.uk
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.independent.co.uk/democracy2015
>>>>> https://twitter.com/Democracy2015
>>>>> http://www.facebook.com/Democracy2015
>>>>>
>>>>> and to help frame the debate here is a statement that occupy brighton
>>>>> have put forward for our (london) comments.
>>>>>
>>>>> "Occupy Brighton (insert London, UK if/when apt) support the stated
>>>>> aspirations of Andreas Whittam-Smith & Democracy 2015. While we are still
>>>>> concerned by issues of transparency, accountability and accessibility, we
>>>>> applaud their ongoing efforts to address these concerns.
>>>>> We see D2015 as an opportunity to further Occupy's agenda from within
>>>>> the establishment, without compromising our anti-establishment principles.
>>>>> Occupy UK could meet D2015's need for regional representation, whilst
>>>>> operating as a legitimate watchdog for transparency and accountability.
>>>>> We encourage all Occupy supporters to investigate the campaign and to
>>>>> feed back their thoughts and feelings via respective Occupy and D2015
>>>>> comms."
>>>>>
>>>>> you can read the discussion, for what it is so far, below. i will also
>>>>> send their newsletter once i get it in a manageable format (it's too big a
>>>>> file to send to lists at the moment).in the meantime pls note that the
>>>>> campaign plan is for a series of democratically run round tables starting
>>>>> in manchester on oct 15 and then going to birmingham and london to decide
>>>>> values, policies and way forward. josh and others who i have met are very
>>>>> interested in occupy skills set / support in the process of running these
>>>>> events which as i understand it are effectively aimed at being assembly
>>>>> based initiatives ... :)
>>>>>
>>>>> hope to hear from other people on this soon.
>>>>>
>>>>> #solidarity
>>>>>
>>>>> mark
>>>>> ps if anyone with the skills is interested to support d2015 they are
>>>>> looking for someone to put a php forum on their new web-site, pls get in
>>>>> touch if you could fix that for them...
>>>>> On 17 September 2012 13:14, Julie Occupy <julieoccupy at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Found an article in The Independent - who seem to be leading campaign
>>>>>> . pasted below .
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My initial thoughts are :
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is a good development and indicative that a civil rights
>>>>>> movement for real democracy and constitutional reform is gathering momentum
>>>>>> with more mainstream support .
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Something similar happened , and is happening , in Iceland with left
>>>>>> field parties popping up for election
>>>>>> with a constitutional reform agenda.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I like the emphasis on time limited representatives from the
>>>>>> community and building a grass roots participative process .
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have concerns the emphasis seems to be very much on middle class
>>>>>> representation - rather than broad based representation across social
>>>>>> classes , ethnicity , disability , gender etc . I think we need an
>>>>>> awareness of who our present political economy privileges, and in any
>>>>>> movement be careful not to replicate structural disadvantage and
>>>>>> oppression .
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think the article vastly over states the power of parliament - but
>>>>>> maybe this is to build hope and momentum for the campaign .
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This new movement , and Occupy , are probably both actors in a pre
>>>>>> figurative movement for peaceful revolutionary change and as such I think
>>>>>> we should build links .
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In the "Pots and Pans and other things " documentary from Iceland a
>>>>>> women working on process for participative constitutional reform said this
>>>>>> can only work if the establishment feel and hear the pressure for change on
>>>>>> the streets .
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *How you can bring our ailing democracy back to life *
>>>>>> *Yesterday, Andreas Whittam Smith, founder of The Independent,
>>>>>> announced a bold plan for a new political movement to restore British
>>>>>> democracy. Here he unveils an initial manifesto for Democracy 2015 – and
>>>>>> explains how you can get involved*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Andreas Whittam Smith with members of the Democracy 2015 team. The
>>>>>> movement aims to return political power to ordinary people
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Susannah Ireland
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Related articles*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - *Andreas Whittam Smith: Our democracy is desperately sick. This
>>>>>> is your chance to help save it*<http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/andreas-whittam-smith-our-democracy-is-desperately-sick-this-is-your-chance-to-help-save-it-8102862.html>
>>>>>> **
>>>>>> - *Clegg determined to drive through House of Lords reforms*<http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/clegg-determined-to-drive-through-house-of-lords-reforms-7447299.html>
>>>>>> - *Peers and MPs reject Clegg's plans to cut size of the Lords
>>>>>> by a half*<http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/peers-and-mps-reject-cleggs-plans-to-cut-size-of-the-lords-by-a-half-6285642.html>
>>>>>> - *David Cameron to go ahead on boundary changes*<http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-cameron-to-go-ahead-on-boundary-changes-8015229.html>
>>>>>> - *Phillip Blond: Electing the Lords would undermine its value*<http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/phillip-blond-electing-the-lords-would-undermine-its-value-7628079.html>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Fact One: respect for our democratic arrangements is in sharp
>>>>>> decline. We no longer vote at general elections in the numbers that we used
>>>>>> to do. We trust members of Parliament and the governments they form less
>>>>>> and less. Despair with the system was vividly expressed by the protesters
>>>>>> camped outside St Paul's Cathedral in London.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Fact Two: the politicians we criticise weren't parachuted into
>>>>>> Westminster from another planet. We voted for them. Once they were like us.
>>>>>> Now they have morphed into a political class. But they do not rule by
>>>>>> divine right. We could change them. The next election is due to take place on
>>>>>> 7 May 2015.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The answer to our predicament is not to turn away from Parliament but
>>>>>> to strengthen it. Parliament is as old as the nation. It grew out of the
>>>>>> great national assemblies that emerged in early 10th-century Britain. It is
>>>>>> part of our genetic inheritance. It is one of the things that make us the
>>>>>> country we are. And because we do not have a written constitution, the
>>>>>> British Parliament is unusually powerful compared with legislatures
>>>>>> elsewhere in the world. It could, for instance, repeal the Acts that ceded
>>>>>> certain responsibilities to European institutions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Moreover all the power that we citizens actually have at our disposal
>>>>>> is in the Palace of Westminster. So that is where people who want to change
>>>>>> things have to direct their attention. Or, more precisely, those who want
>>>>>> to change things have to secure the election of candidates to the House of
>>>>>> Commons who represent their views. And they have to do so on a scale that
>>>>>> counts. The election of a few stray independent members would achieve
>>>>>> little.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What is being described here is an exceedingly challenging task that
>>>>>> takes us into the realm of the near impossible. But in politics, the near
>>>>>> impossible can happen. Perhaps the near impossible is more frequent now.
>>>>>> Barack Obama became President. The Rev Ian Paisley and Martin McGuinness
>>>>>> became colleagues in Northern Ireland. We acquired a coalition government.
>>>>>> Unelected technocrats are now the Prime Ministers of Greece and Italy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The problem is that the entrance to the House of Commons is narrow
>>>>>> and access difficult. The established political parties largely control
>>>>>> elections. This is how parliamentary democracies work. It is their default
>>>>>> mode. And in a first-past-the-post electoral system, the old parties
>>>>>> operate with deadly efficiency. Their system is effective.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It might, however, be worked around. Let us consider how this could
>>>>>> be done and then what would be the essential preparatory work. Suppose a
>>>>>> large group of like-minded citizens could be persuaded to stand for
>>>>>> Parliament for one term only. They would have been pursuing demanding
>>>>>> careers, such as being the head of a large school or running a charity or
>>>>>> getting a new business under way or directing a trade union. They would
>>>>>> have done something with their lives, and have established themselves in
>>>>>> their communities.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Their qualifications would be different from those of the current
>>>>>> membership of the House of Commons. When politicians reach the top, their
>>>>>> "skill set" is limited to marketing themselves and their parties to the
>>>>>> electorate. Many of them are brilliant people, but there is not much else
>>>>>> they have experience of doing. Some 90 members of the present parliament,
>>>>>> for instance, have spent their entire working lives in politics, often
>>>>>> starting off in their party research departments. And if you then add in
>>>>>> occupations that, while filled with brilliant practitioners, do not
>>>>>> generally involve significant management responsibilities such as the law,
>>>>>> medicine, teaching and journalism, you have accounted for half the House of
>>>>>> Commons. Yet these people have a government to run, or hope to do so in the
>>>>>> future.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> However, when non-politicians who have run things whether for profit
>>>>>> or not reach the top, they will have become competent in a range of solid
>>>>>> activities, things you have to be able to do whether you are running a
>>>>>> business or a charity –creating new services and products, financial
>>>>>> planning, harnessing of technology and managing substantial numbers of
>>>>>> employees. As a result, they are much better equipped for the tasks of
>>>>>> government than the average politician.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There would be another difference. Professional politicians have but
>>>>>> one object in mind, winning the next general election. They are engaged in
>>>>>> non-stop electioneering from the morning following victory or defeat at the
>>>>>> polls until the next general election. They feel that they must do whatever
>>>>>> it takes to stay in office or regain it. The new members, the one-term-only
>>>>>> cohort, would be mercifully free of these distorting pressures.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Their task, assuming they were returned in sufficiently large
>>>>>> numbers, would be single-mindedly to put right as many things as possible
>>>>>> that governments formed by the traditional parties had failed to resolve.
>>>>>> Then these temporary MPs would stand down when their single term was
>>>>>> finished. As a consequence, they would have had to so frame their mission
>>>>>> that it could be completed in five years. That would have been one of their
>>>>>> promises to the electorate and part of their attraction. They would not be
>>>>>> politicians but they would have been elected in the classic manner. Their
>>>>>> democratic legitimacy would be at least equal to that of the present
>>>>>> members of the House of Commons.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> However, without making the enormous and unprecedented effort to
>>>>>> create a new, national vote-winning organisation, not a single new-style
>>>>>> candidate is going to be elected, let alone a sufficient number to
>>>>>> participate in the government of the country. And that is precisely why the
>>>>>> moment to start is now, with still nearly three years available for
>>>>>> preparation. But where to begin?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What is first required is participative policy making, lasting a
>>>>>> year, and using the digital media to ensure openness and legitimacy. The
>>>>>> purpose would be to discuss and decide what the next government should
>>>>>> do – in detail, with expert advice, not neglecting constitutional reform,
>>>>>> working in groups, capable of being boiled down into a series of measures
>>>>>> that the electorate would find attractive.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This would not be so difficult as it sounds. Ideological differences
>>>>>> are small these days, even between the established parties, which often
>>>>>> magnify what are in effect small distinctions to make themselves stand out.
>>>>>> The exercise would be unusual only in the sense that no difficult subjects
>>>>>> would be avoided, everything would be upfront and open, no surprises, no
>>>>>> hidden agenda.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then, as this work progressed, and more and more individuals with
>>>>>> contributions to make were drawn into it, and news of what was being
>>>>>> undertaken began to spread, it is likely that people would emerge who were
>>>>>> so committed to what was being proposed that they would stand for
>>>>>> Parliament to try to carry through the programme. They would see it as a
>>>>>> worthwhile public duty, not a career. But unless a start is made now, we
>>>>>> shall never get to that point.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *If ordinary people are to reclaim politics from the party elites,
>>>>>> ordinary people need to take action. This is how they – and you – can do
>>>>>> so...*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you would like to be involoved in our project and participate in
>>>>>> developing these ideas, please email the team at*
>>>>>> democracy2015 at independent.co.uk* <democracy2015 at independent.co.uk>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From your message, we would be grateful to learn:
>>>>>> a. The town or village where you live and the name of your
>>>>>> parliamentary constituency. That will help us to plan events and meetings.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> b. What you consider to be the government policies that most need
>>>>>> redoing. That would help set the agenda for the writing of a manifesto.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> c. How you would like to help. That could be either in thinking
>>>>>> through issues or in helping to organise the process. The two tasks are
>>>>>> equally daunting, and there is much to be done for each –for instance, in
>>>>>> chairing meetings, setting up groups, taking notes, contacting and
>>>>>> recruiting experts.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> d. Whether you would support the principle of making a small
>>>>>> contribution from time to time to keep the work going, a maximum of £50.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Our objective is to obtain a majority in the next House of Commons.
>>>>>> The members so elected would declare that they intended to serve only one
>>>>>> term. While I have described this target in The Independent as "near
>>>>>> impossible", as indeed it is, I cannot see the point of aiming at anything
>>>>>> less if the intention is to make a difference. The ideas below are
>>>>>> correspondingly bold.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What next? It is easy to point to the failures of the existing
>>>>>> system, but what would success look like? Our aspiration is that by the
>>>>>> next general election, we will have achieved the following:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. A group of candidates would have announced easy-to-understand
>>>>>> policies for the problems people worry most about, such as unemployment,
>>>>>> crime, immigration, care of old people, NHS, welfare reform, Europe.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2. It would have connected with the young and made them an integral
>>>>>> part of the campaign.
>>>>>> 3. It would have adopted a consultative style in policy making that
>>>>>> it would carry through into government.
>>>>>> 4. It would have staged primary elections in every constituency, 650
>>>>>> of them, to choose its candidates a year before the general election due to
>>>>>> be held on 7 May 2015. This would have enabled its candidates to
>>>>>> have spent at least a year working in their constituencies and become well
>>>>>> known locally. Constituency primaries would have been big events.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 5. It would have found a credible leader and candidates capable of
>>>>>> running the departments of state if elected. In other words, it would have
>>>>>> become a "Government-in-Waiting".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 6. It would have achieved regular coverage in the national media.
>>>>>> 7. It would have convincingly attacked the incompetence of the
>>>>>> traditional political parties when in government.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 17 Sep 2012, at 10:57, Julie Occupy <julieoccupy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Mark
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Could you put a little more information about D2015 Democracy
>>>>>> 2015on here and specifically what they are calling for on the list .
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I can't access the Facebook page from my iPhone and quite a few
>>>>>> members of rdwg don't use Facebook at all.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 17 Sep 2012, at 10:02, Mark Barrett <marknbarrett at googlemail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear Everyone
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This may have slipped you all by - or maybe not but the following
>>>>>> statement has been prepared and is supported (but not publically) by Occupy
>>>>>> Brighton. It relates to the question of the D2015 Democracy2015 initiative
>>>>>> of Andreas Whittam-Smith and others which you may have read about.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I met with some of the D2015 team on Friday, and there are some
>>>>>> comments on this set out below the statement along with words from Anna
>>>>>> Harris from Occupy Manchester who attended the Pirate Party conference in
>>>>>> London yesterday, and Ben in Brighton ( we all have somewhat similar - and
>>>>>> big - concerns but also a sense of real possibility via mutually supportive
>>>>>> activities hence our conversation). Both Anna and Ben are cc'd and probably
>>>>>> a good idea to add them to the main OL groupspace list so they can
>>>>>> participate fully in the debate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anna and Ben you may also wish to join the rdwg ( ie real democracy)
>>>>>> and lsxcampeconomics googlegroups which are also cc'd, open access and
>>>>>> possible sites of good discussion on this crucial topic.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The D2015 FB group is at
>>>>>> http://www.facebook.com/groups/149760215140893/#!/groups/democracy2015/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Please can people comment?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best wishes
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mark
>>>>>> Re Democracy2015 FYI / Response
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Occupy Brighton are happy with this statement - holding fire for
>>>>>> feedback from London. Would be good to get it out sooner rather than later
>>>>>> methinks...It seems D2015 are stalling quite badly and need help getting
>>>>>> their sh*t together.
>>>>>> "Occupy Brighton (insert London, UK if/when apt) support the stated
>>>>>> aspirations of Andreas Whittam-Smith & Democracy 2015. While we are still
>>>>>> concerned by issues of transparency, accountability and accessibility, we
>>>>>> applaud their ongoing efforts to address these concerns.
>>>>>> We see D2015 as an opportunity to further Occupy's agenda from within
>>>>>> the establishment, without compromising our anti-establishment principles.
>>>>>> Occupy UK could meet D2015's need for regional representation, whilst
>>>>>> operating as a legitimate watchdog for transparency and accountability.
>>>>>> We encourage all Occupy supporters to investigate the campaign and to
>>>>>> feed back their thoughts and feelings via respective Occupy and D2015
>>>>>> comms."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Conversation in reverse latest at top earliest at bottom
>>>>>> Hello Anna and Ben
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for the emails -- need time to reply properly but just wanted
>>>>>> to say on the Living Wage /Citizen's Income side - imo this is really good
>>>>>> stuff - i agree that CI and work related issues should be at the heart of
>>>>>> the project(s). Harry Shutt btw used to be working with the Occuopy LSX
>>>>>> Econmisc Group
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd only like to add that if assembly institutions (to be developed /
>>>>>> encourage by possible coalition !) could be linked into this, as
>>>>>> representative, watchdog and policy driver (as suggested by Ben) but also
>>>>>> with - in the context of work - the position of horizontally driven
>>>>>> disburser of monies / other welfare services at the local level (in
>>>>>> addition to CI) then people could be incentivised to develop their work
>>>>>> life in collaboration with their neighbours / other local peeps ( ie local
>>>>>> institutions employ and support individuals and groupings of individuals
>>>>>> to do what they themselves desire to to as checked and agreed by local
>>>>>> assembly of their choice as a new form of public employment ) so liberating
>>>>>> people from the humiliating doles vs crap job dichotomy and growing a new
>>>>>> community based economy. and this could begin to tap into the Welfare
>>>>>> reform stuff as money while crucial for people's well being financially is
>>>>>> nevertheless presently not spent well ( and we spend 180 billion or so on
>>>>>> DSS related stuff don't we?)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This stuff about the future of work should be a key debate at PP,
>>>>>> D2015 and also involving Occupy .
>>>>>> i blogged about it in a rudimentary way here
>>>>>> http://righttowork.org.uk/2011/07/real-democracy-and-the-future-of-work/apols if the post is so basic as to be basically rubbish but i know that
>>>>>> Anna and I conversed positively on this a few months back.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As i said the guys at 2015 were interested in a debate on work hours
>>>>>> ( i want a 3 day weekend - it just feels right as a bare minimum for those
>>>>>> that work conventional hours) so maybe this can all be linked together
>>>>>> under work which in the future must become dignified humane and liberaating
>>>>>> for all yeah
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Speak again soon sorry if incoherent massive rush.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Love
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mark
>>>>>> On 17 September 2012 07:24, Anna Harris wrote:
>>>>>> Hi Both,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One interesting possible policy which I discussed with PP is
>>>>>> Citizen's income, which there is talk of including in their manifesto. Not
>>>>>> everyone agrees, but Rik the swedish founder of the party, John and Harry
>>>>>> Shutt, who spoke on the economy panel, are passionate supporters. My
>>>>>> discussion with John about CI arose because he mentioned that 'full
>>>>>> employment is a thing of the past', which is such an expression of old
>>>>>> economic thinking. When challenged he was quick to move from there to an
>>>>>> understanding that our whole attitude to 'work' has to change.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Green party has recently produced a book by Clive Lord
>>>>>> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Citizens-Income-Foundation-Sustainable-World/dp/1897766874
>>>>>> I think if we took this as our focus it would deal with 'living wage'
>>>>>> mentioned by Ben without it being tied to senseless work.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I realise this would be very radical for D2015, but apparently the
>>>>>> present government has proposed something like a universal pension. Harry
>>>>>> Shutt started to tell me something about it. I will get more details. I
>>>>>> think D2015 needs to be prepared to propose something as radical as CI in
>>>>>> order to get off the ground, to tackle vast inequalities through a
>>>>>> restructuring of the basic economy. This has to be bold if it is to capture
>>>>>> public imagination. We also need to work out in detail how this can become
>>>>>> real, ie how much it would cost and where the money is to come from, which
>>>>>> may already have been worked out in the book. I will contact Clive and
>>>>>> Harry to work on this. It could be something which will bring together
>>>>>> Pirates, Greens, and D2015.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Love you both, Anna
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 9:38 PM, Ben wrote:
>>>>>> Whoa - lot to digest - sounds positive. :) I have some immediate
>>>>>> thoughts/responses, but need to wake up properly, eat some
>>>>>> food/reread/process all this and get back to you in detail.
>>>>>> quickly though cos it's exciting...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> re: middle class policies - absolutely agree with Anna. Fair rents,
>>>>>> Living wage are the two universally understandable/communicable big
>>>>>> carrots/incentives - Strongest UK policies to plug as far as I see it,
>>>>>> though obviously the policy problem is more complicated than a simple class
>>>>>> divide.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The reason the policies D2015 (and Occupy) are middle class is
>>>>>> because by and large the only people with any faith left in participatory
>>>>>> democracy's capacity for reform ARE pretty middle class. We need to
>>>>>> persuade the middle class that actually we should be focused on the
>>>>>> perspectives of those not yet actively involved in the debate: the cynical
>>>>>> Old Guard, the Working Class and our burgeoning Underclass AND the elite.
>>>>>> We need to persuade these "demographics" that participatory democracy has
>>>>>> merit before we can really move forward. This means the GAs/WGs will have
>>>>>> to be brilliantly organised with a focus on inclusivity and direct
>>>>>> action...one universal reason the movement has struggled to move forward is
>>>>>> the island mentality - combined with a scarcity of time and a reluctance to
>>>>>> risk wasting what time we have on futile ventures. We need more practical,
>>>>>> safe, fun and immediately actionable proposals imvho.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Feedback all sounds really positive from D2015 an PP - well done for
>>>>>> getting there guys, wish I could have come.
>>>>>> got to go eat, will get backatcha again soon
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Brighton are scheming for a GA on Sunday opposite the Lib Dem Party
>>>>>> Conf @the Brighton Centre - we will be discussing D2015, the Brighton
>>>>>> text...and Re-Occupy of course. would be greatr of you could help us rally
>>>>>> for it. Debate about tactics/press release here:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.facebook.com/notes/occupy-brighton/general-assembly-23rd-sep-2012-press-release-draft-11/409562975774780?notif_t=note_comment
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Much thanks for all you both do/have done/are doing - solidarity,
>>>>>> speak soon.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 16 September 2012 00:07, <marknbarrett at googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Hello Ben and Anna
>>>>>> I'm writing to you both because you're the ones whose ideas and
>>>>>> comments I relayed to the D2015 people yesterday evening.
>>>>>> Ben is from Occupy Brighton (who have prepared a statement cautiously
>>>>>> optimistic and supportive of D2015) and Anna from Hebden Bridge, active on
>>>>>> the global networks and presently attending the Pirate Party national
>>>>>> conference in London. As both of you are top lovely peeps do say hello if
>>>>>> you feel like a nice exchange :)
>>>>>> I met briefly with Andreas Whittam-Smith (the Indie founder and main
>>>>>> person behind D2015) and for about an hour with Will Wytham and Luke (not
>>>>>> sure of surname) from his young team of volunteers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> All three were extremely warm and keen to learn / get info and ideas
>>>>>> and constructive criticism on the way forward including possible stumbling
>>>>>> blocks in terms of possibly working with Occupy. Also they really
>>>>>> appreciated your input on the FB group Ben :)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They were definitely interested in possibility of an alternative
>>>>>> coalition ie maybe working with the Pirates, Greens, charities and so forth
>>>>>> as you've suggested Ben. They were also fully aware and concerned about
>>>>>> issues of transparency, accessibility and accountability (again, from Ben)
>>>>>> as well as the need for non-elite candidates, a less middle class policy
>>>>>> list (Anna), local assemblies as possible representative bodies and
>>>>>> watchdogs (Ben) and the global angle.
>>>>>> We discussed at length how there might be a fantastic synergy between
>>>>>> the grassroots autonomous and the party approach run on radically different
>>>>>> lines, about the need for local community engagement via Occupy style
>>>>>> processes, traditional door knocking and other new approaches including the
>>>>>> use of social media. I also mentioned the idea of running a populist FB
>>>>>> campaign for a 4 day working week to drum up support and interest and they
>>>>>> liked the idea of focusing policy on working hours a lot.
>>>>>> I filled them in on October plans, and -i/we/they noted their first
>>>>>> round table meeting due to take place in Manchester (and which they are
>>>>>> open to running on horizontal lines) is on the potentially interesting date
>>>>>> of Oct15.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As I understand it the round tables which start on the 15th before
>>>>>> continuing in Birmingham London and presumably tbc elsewhere will be to
>>>>>> work out a values statement and start the process of policy development
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They hope to send someone to the Pirate conference tomorrow but not
>>>>>> sure. I hope to be there myself but not sure yet as it's my birthday and
>>>>>> there is some pressure to stay with the family (from my 3 children and
>>>>>> partner) as you might understand.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> However whatever the case I think they will want to explore
>>>>>> collaboration so do please take that message forward Anna if you are
>>>>>> willing. And I will certainly call you to see if there's anything more I
>>>>>> can assist you with or maybe give you Will's number to pass on to a
>>>>>> relevant Pirate or perhaps get in touch yourself. One possibility for
>>>>>> coalition building is to convene and open spokes-council to explore the
>>>>>> idea and invite participation from Pirates, Occupy, Greens, other relevant
>>>>>> parties, pressure groups, charities / NGOs. What do you think Ben ?
>>>>>> From my side I will be sending D2015 a list of useful social media
>>>>>> platforms (plus encouraging a transparent email list or series of lists for
>>>>>> the project) and also some policy stuff from Occupy London (policy from
>>>>>> the grassroots to drive policy implementation from a new coalition ) and
>>>>>> hopefully will manage to get them meeting some good Occupy London people
>>>>>> next week or the week after.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Know I've missed stuff but that's all I can recall now.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> About statement I will remind London list to comment and let you know
>>>>>> what comes back. Anna will cc you in.
>>>>>> More later - happy to hear your thoughts.
>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>> Mark
>>>>>> Sent from phone
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From: Anna Harris
>>>>>> Subject: PP Meeting today
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Mark,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Had a very useful meeting up with members of PP international today.
>>>>>> We had a walking tour of central London with pub stops. Rik, the founder of
>>>>>> the PP was there from Sweden. I learned alot about the other aims of the PP
>>>>>> which he says a very aligned to the Green party - as MEPs they work well
>>>>>> together. Eg they would support a basic income. Mostly young people, very
>>>>>> open to discussion.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tomorrow they will be looking at policy and trying to make decisions.
>>>>>> Much difference of opinion as in Occupy, but this feels good.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I mentioned the D2015 from the Independent. There was some interest.
>>>>>> What did you find out today? Feels like there is much potential here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anna
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mark: I am meeting with D2015 people on Friday.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And FYI personally I'm also cautiously optimistic, subject to similar
>>>>>> concerns.
>>>>>> Interestingly I've seen no discussion about this at all on the London
>>>>>> networks (although election politics was such a contentious topic back in
>>>>>> Jan-May in run up to Mayoral election as there was an attempt to co-opt
>>>>>> Occupy London so for that reason alone I'm not surprised) but I was going
>>>>>> to raise it this week if no-one else did so your mail is timely. One D2015
>>>>>> person has already indicated he wants to attend an Occupy London meeting so
>>>>>> it's important this gets handled carefully. Personally am
>>>>>> really happy Brighton is on it. But do hold fire ..
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I will write again later today as soon as I get a moment to read your
>>>>>> mail properly and reflect.
>>>>>> Cheers'
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Brighton contact:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 're: lack of discussion on Occupy comms - I think this could be a
>>>>>> good thing - if D2015 is intended to function as a distraction/co-opt
>>>>>> Occupy would do well to ignore/not divert attention.
>>>>>> That said, we seem to be on the same page re: reserving
>>>>>> judgement/cautious optimism.
>>>>>> Brighton will hold fire on releasing the statement until we hear back
>>>>>> from your good self/other London bods.
>>>>>> Speak soon,'
>>>>>> Me:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 'Don't get the sense it's an attempt to co-opt but there is a danger
>>>>>> it could divert by neutering that aspect of Occupy concerned to build new
>>>>>> democratic institutions. One particular comment by AWS about his concern re
>>>>>> people losing faith in our existing institutions (rather than getting into
>>>>>> them and sorting them out) stood out to me.
>>>>>> Personally I think we need both (new local and regional institutions
>>>>>> as-well as a transformation driven by the grass-roots of the old ones) and
>>>>>> I do get the feeling this is a possibility through the politics of D2015
>>>>>> combined with Occupy as the Brighton text maintains.
>>>>>> And the concerns about transparency etc identified in the Brighton
>>>>>> text go with this for me.
>>>>>> On first v cursory read would add 'local' to the bit about regional
>>>>>> representation or is that a direct reference to the 2015 statements.
>>>>>> Probably will mail some other London people about it later today off
>>>>>> list did you already mail a few others ?
>>>>>> Will write again asap.'
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 'Agree on all your points. No opinion on "regional" vs "local".
>>>>>> I haven't mailed too many bods yet as I have been concerned about
>>>>>> D2015 as a distraction from our efforts to reOccupy in October.
>>>>>> Ideally I would like to fold the two efforts into each other if
>>>>>> poss....Brighton are hoping to be organised in time for GAs/open planning
>>>>>> meetings to coincide the Lib Dem conference 22nd-26th.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I got in touch with you as you seemed to be the most active on Occupy
>>>>>> comms on our webmail - have only consulted re: D2015with my "circle of
>>>>>> trust" in Brighton & Worthing, also with Occupy London via fb.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We are holding fire until we hear back from everyone we've spoken
>>>>>> with already - it occurs that perhaps we should wait until D2015 have their
>>>>>> infrastructure/relaunch materials sorted?
>>>>>> Cheers fer getting back to us, - are you the same Mark who visited us
>>>>>> with the kind offer of "activist counseling" when we are all burning out
>>>>>> last year btw?
>>>>>> Speak soon - do keep us updated'
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Will reply in a bit to this last one to say the post is now on the
>>>>>> London email list and that it's probably Mark Weaver our friend is
>>>>>> referring to!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Apathy is Dead !
>>>>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/solarider/5254770064/#/photos/solarider/5254770064/lightbox/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Apathy is Dead !
>>>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/solarider/5254770064/#/photos/solarider/5254770064/lightbox/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Apathy is Dead !
>>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/solarider/5254770064/#/photos/solarider/5254770064/lightbox/
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Friendly reminder: please keep these mailing list discussions to a
>>>> minimum as they reach a lot of people. Instead you can email working groups
>>>> and individuals directly, or use the Occupy London forum at
>>>> occupylondon . info<http://e.groupspaces.com/click/2foa8-4amu2-3w9ron76x?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.occupylondon.info%2F>
>>>>
>>>> You receive this email as a member of the Occupy London Groupspace<http://e.groupspaces.com/click/2foa8-4amu2-3w9ron76x?u=http%3A%2F%2Fgroupspaces.com%2FOccupyLondon%2F%3Futm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dgroup-listmail%26utm_term%3Dgroup-listmail-64715>.
>>>> Manage your group membership<http://e.groupspaces.com/click/2foa8-4amu2-3w9ron76x?u=http%3A%2F%2Fgroupspaces.com%2Fmy%2Faccount%2F%3Futm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dgroup-listmail%26utm_term%3Dgroup-listmail-64715>or
>>>> unsubscribe<http://e.groupspaces.com/click/2foa8-4amu2-3w9ron76x?u=http%3A%2F%2Fgroupspaces.com%2FOccupyLondon%2Funsubscribe%2F%3Futm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dgroup-listmail%26utm_term%3Dgroup-listmail-64715>
>>>> .
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> KIDD STUDIOS - Quality Audio Recordings
>>>
>>> www.reverbnation.com/kiddstudios
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Friendly reminder: please keep these mailing list discussions to a
>>> minimum as they reach a lot of people. Instead you can email working groups
>>> and individuals directly, or use the Occupy London forum at occupylondon
>>> . info<http://e.groupspaces.com/click/2hxk6-2rx0r-lhmryzxtn?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.occupylondon.info%2F>
>>>
>>> You receive this email as a member of the Occupy London Groupspace<http://e.groupspaces.com/click/2hxk6-2rx0r-lhmryzxtn?u=http%3A%2F%2Fgroupspaces.com%2FOccupyLondon%2F%3Futm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dgroup-listmail%26utm_term%3Dgroup-listmail-64715>.
>>> Manage your group membership<http://e.groupspaces.com/click/2hxk6-2rx0r-lhmryzxtn?u=http%3A%2F%2Fgroupspaces.com%2Fmy%2Faccount%2F%3Futm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dgroup-listmail%26utm_term%3Dgroup-listmail-64715>or
>>> unsubscribe<http://e.groupspaces.com/click/2hxk6-2rx0r-lhmryzxtn?u=http%3A%2F%2Fgroupspaces.com%2FOccupyLondon%2Funsubscribe%2F%3Futm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dgroup-listmail%26utm_term%3Dgroup-listmail-64715>
>>> .
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> KIDD STUDIOS - Quality Audio Recordings
>
> www.reverbnation.com/kiddstudios
>
>
--
Apathy is Dead !
http://www.flickr.com/photos/solarider/5254770064/#/photos/solarider/5254770064/lightbox/
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