[OccupyComms] [Occupy London] Re: [rdwg] Debate about Party / Electoral Coalition Building ( while keeping our autonomy intact!!! )
Tina Louise
tinalouise at gmail.com
Tue Oct 16 12:20:34 GMT 2012
Interesting Anna thank you for the update:)
On 16 October 2012 12:54, Mark Barrett <marknbarrett at googlemail.com> wrote:
> Here is a message kindly sent me by Anna Harris, re last night's inaugural
> D2015 Manchester meeting. Tonight is Brums turn, tomorrow London. See
> meeting info below message.
>
> 'Well attended meeting last night, maybe 50, good cross section.
>
> Addressed by Andreas (Andreas Whittam Smith), then 'open discussion' - all
> addressed to AWS. Short meeting 1 hour, held tight.
>
> Nevertheless much accomplished, set up Manchester group which I was
> invited to coordinate. Will liase with Nick. 18 signed up for the group.
>
> I asked about not standing against others like Greens or Pirates. Initial
> response from AWS was we should ignore other parties, go it alone. But by
> the end of the meeting he had come round.
>
> His suggestion - form groups to discuss specific topics for manifesto,
> sounded good to me.
>
> Much discussion about how to contact those not online, which we will
> pursue in the Manchester group.
>
> Good feeling, very exciting.
>
> Love Anna
>
> On 14 October 2012 22:47, Mark Barrett <marknbarrett at googlemail.com>wrote:
>
>> *On Meeting Occupy*
>>
>> Report posted recently at
>> http://www.democracy2015.co.uk/thread.php?pid=22
>>
>> On Monday the 1st October, three of the Democracy 2015 team attended a
>> weekly meeting of representatives from the Occupy movement. They are a
>> political group with final goals perhaps divergent to our own, but with
>> whom we nonetheless share some core values such as the spirit of grassroots
>> cooperation and the belief in participative consultation. Both of our
>> organisations recognise the benefits that come with sharing information and
>> resources, so in addition to making clear our differences we also took from
>> the meeting plenty of positive advice. We furthermore made plans for future
>> talks; both groups hope to find ways in which we can develop a mutually
>> beneficial working relationship, and perhaps later become, maybe not
>> partners, but certainly allies. Democracy 2015 intends to be take part in
>> Occupy's upcoming Putney debates.
>> This meeting with Occupy was the most recent of several face-to-face
>> discussions which Democracy 2015 has held with other democratic reform
>> organisations over the past six weeks. As part of our commitment to be open
>> and transparent in all of our activities, we have felt it only right to
>> invite these groups and individuals to meet with us in London to see our
>> operation and provide the opportunity for them to share any advice or
>> indeed concerns which they might have. Similarly, we have accepted all
>> invitations extended to us. Political movements from which we have met
>> representatives include Unlock Democracy, Open Democracy and Republic.
>> Many of the groups with whom we meet have asked searching but valid
>> questions on topics such as our organisational structure and funding. We
>> hopefully have managed to settle any apprehensions they may have held
>> regarding these areas, and indeed we have made efforts to clarify them to
>> all parties by publishing the FAQ list on our website. In addition to
>> answering criticisms, we have, as already mentioned, frequently been given
>> much useful information and guidance. This shared advice commonly relates
>> to areas such as marketing and reach strategies, useful web tools,
>> organisational structuring and the sharing of network contacts.
>> In this spirit of participation, there is an open invitation to all
>> individuals and organisations who might wish to visit us at our new home in
>> Bermondsey, South-East London, whether they be registered D2015 supporters
>> or otherwise. This provides an opportunity for you to meet Andreas and the
>> team and ask us any questions that you might have, or discuss ways in which
>> you can become more deeply involved with the campaign. Please do get
>> in touch via email and we will be delighted to arrange a time which
>> suits. Similarly, we are looking forward to meeting many of you at our
>> forthcoming events in Manchester, Birmingham and London, to which there has
>> been a terrific show of interest. Again, see the website<http://www.democracy2015.co.uk/www.democracy2015.co.uk>for further details, or sign up at
>> democracy2015 at independent.co.uk.
>>
>> Info about Manchester (15th), Birmimgham (16th) and
>> London Meeting next Wed 17th Oct 6pm University of Westminster
>> http://www.democracy2015.co.uk/thread.php?pid=21
>>
>> On 6 October 2012 15:48, Anna Harris <anna at shsh.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> HI All,
>>>
>>> Can we keep the D2015 debate a bit separate from the Occupy one, I think
>>> there are different issues relevant to each?
>>>
>>> Re the D2015 statement on fb: this is a good beginning but
>>> the debate that is going on about it on fb feels very much like the
>>> point scoring debate that goes on in Parliament. We need to begin to feel
>>> that we are building something together rather than 'I'm right and you're
>>> wrong'.
>>>
>>> b) 1). The aim - *to address the decline in faith in elected
>>> politicians.* This decline is a reflection of the realisation that the
>>> politicians to do not serve the people. So our aim should be to *make
>>> sure that politicians serve the people.*
>>>
>>> 111) 2. *They agree to adhere to the manifesto*. This sounds like
>>> candidates are being asked to 'toe the party line' whether they agree or
>>> not. Opinions may change after the manifesto is created. We want people who
>>> sincerely believe in what they are doing, not ones who act as robots.
>>>
>>> c) i)* The integrity of the parliamentary system* cannot be maintained
>>> until we acknowledge that people come before profit. This involves *
>>> caring* for people in a way which acknowledges that* this is what
>>> government is about*. (you notice the lack of women involved in the
>>> discussion)
>>> The following article puts foward policies which could be the foundation
>>> of such an approach:
>>> http://transitionvoice.com/2012/09/manifesto-for-a-post-growth-economy/
>>>
>>> iv) It is unecessarily insulting to call the population '*apathetic*'.
>>> They have every reason not to want to be involved in the farce which
>>> maintains the illusion that politicians are there to serve their interests.
>>>
>>> Agree with Ben that politicians should be prepared to work for
>>> subsistence pay.
>>>
>>> More later,
>>> anna
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Oct 6, 2012 at 6:21 AM, KIDD STUDIOS <kiddstudios at googlemail.com
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm hopeless at navigating these email threads, sorry guys...can't find
>>>> the original one now, though I read over it/replied to it earlier on.
>>>>
>>>> From memory, the criticisms of the Brighton statement beyond
>>>> transparency, accountability and accessibility were to do with the
>>>> "middle-class" focus of the policy debates over on the D2015 forum. I
>>>> wholeheartedly agree and Brighton also seem to - will be looking for a more
>>>> detailed demand for ways D2015/ a big coalition could become truly
>>>> inclusive. If there are any other sensible crits/amendments to consider,
>>>> please fwd them on to us, eh?
>>>>
>>>> I've had some ideas re: the whole concept of realistic ways of moving
>>>> forward productively, inclusively, together.
>>>>
>>>> TBH I see the same problem re: "middle class" charge with Occupy from a
>>>> different perspective. Whilst our policies have very much focused on the
>>>> interests of the vulnerable, the underclass and working classes, our
>>>> language and debates have become very much more middle/upper class sounding
>>>> (intelligent, articulate, gracious) sounding. This has effectively
>>>> alienated us from the communities we want to empower. The use of
>>>> prohibitively articulate language & complicated concepts in
>>>> "marketing"/"outreach" in the media, press, social networks et al has
>>>> created an environment which "ordinary/normal" people find either a)
>>>> boring, and/or b) pretentious, and sadly in some cases c) fascist.
>>>>
>>>> The last charge is the most serious one for us all to address if we are
>>>> to move towards an effective campaign for real democracy. We need to
>>>> monitor ourselves constantly for creeping fascism and actively fight
>>>> against it's subtle influence. We need to be less judgmental. I was
>>>> horrified when a squatter friend of mine with somewhat more experience in
>>>> occupying public spaces pointed out that the camp in Brighton was going
>>>> that way. We were able to militantly enforce the "safer spaces" Dry Zone
>>>> for the first month or so, but in the end I was the last sober man standing
>>>> on the tranquility team. The second month became a rapid descent into
>>>> absolute chaos as we became overrun by violent alcoholics and junkies, (as
>>>> predicted by my squatter friend)...the chattering classes retreating to
>>>> their sofas and facebook.
>>>>
>>>> What I personally learned from the experience was
>>>>
>>>> a) We need to staff sober, reality tranquility teams if we want safer
>>>> spaces.
>>>> b) it's not about the drug/proclivity/addiction, it's about the
>>>> influence on behaviour/the safe space.
>>>> c) we ALL need to drop our prejudgements/preconceptions. We can't just
>>>> make that demand of everybody else without acknowledging EVERYBODY'S right
>>>> to be involved in the process.
>>>> d) people with easily identifiable, disruptive behavioral issues need
>>>> help more than ANY other vulnerable group. Making sure they get the help
>>>> they need should be the responsibility of EVERYBODY involved in the group's
>>>> activity...
>>>>
>>>> I propose we need to have a debate about drugs/party culture and the
>>>> association with anti-social behaviour. Brighton is a party town so if it
>>>> can be figured out anywhere we should be able to do it here ffs!!!
>>>>
>>>> IMPO Drugs policy should be a health not a criminalisation issue. a la
>>>> Dr Nutt. We should have an amnesty for all drug dealers/users, preceding
>>>> decriminalisation, regulation and formal integration with existing health
>>>> care providers. Some people will argue for taxation, though I would agree
>>>> to disagree with them...sticky one....
>>>>
>>>> These are just two examples of the inclusivity issue which needs to be
>>>> addressed by forming sound "on the ground" policy re: the dry/wet zone
>>>> issue, which has plagued all social movements and indeed society itself,
>>>> forever. We need to take difficult inclusivity issues like the dry/wet
>>>> zone, the GA process/participatory democratic models themselves on directly
>>>> and pronto if D2015 are serious about their 2/3 year timeframe. Personally
>>>> I think 2015 is an unrealistic target without quickly forming the ideal:
>>>> the support of an ultimate coalition for authentic, real, ACTUAL democracy,
>>>> by the PEOPLE for the people.
>>>>
>>>> Bit of a ramble, sorry. The gist is that the language/debates are
>>>> presently not "trending". I'd like to set up/get involved with any existing
>>>> Marketing/Public Relations WG if there is one. I've barely used my chops
>>>> for ages and I really need to start integrating my activism with some fun!
>>>> :)
>>>>
>>>> Thanks to all kicking these thoughts around...will RP relevant bits to
>>>> Occupy Brighton fb & D2015 debates.
>>>>
>>>> Solidarity
>>>>
>>>> Ben
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 6 October 2012 01:16, Tina Louise <tinalouise at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Think it interesting and keep hearing about it from different sectors
>>>>> of my world... authenticity is really important and it is good to know that
>>>>> you're looking into it. Will dedicate time to explore further when I can :)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 6 October 2012 01:23, marknbarrett at googlemail.com <
>>>>> marknbarrett at googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> **
>>>>>> PS just saw this on FB group page, FYI
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sneak Preview: D2015 Declaration
>>>>>> Democracy 2015
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Declaration
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The purpose of this document is to outline the fundamental underlying
>>>>>> values which the Democracy 2015 movement (hereafter 'The movement') holds
>>>>>> to be foundations of how we (the volunteers) act and how the organisation
>>>>>> aims to conduct itself. This document is not a statement on policy areas,
>>>>>> nor a definitive explanation of what we aim to achieve. It is meant as a
>>>>>> point of reference and a description of the way we act and wish to be
>>>>>> understood.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> a) The problem
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I) The movement understands that there is a serious problem with
>>>>>> contemporary politics in the UK. There are several areas which recent
>>>>>> developments have highlighted.
>>>>>> a) Leveson Inquiry: the unethical links between
>>>>>> Government ministers and the media.
>>>>>> b) Parliamentary Expenses Scandal: unethical claims made
>>>>>> by MPs for expenses: abuse of the discretion accorded by the public for
>>>>>> reasonable remuneration when on public business.
>>>>>> c) Major dissatisfaction with UK politics and
>>>>>> politicians, highlighted in a January 2012 poll by YouGov.
>>>>>> d) A decline in voter turnout in the UK since the
>>>>>> 1950s.[4]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> b) Our aims
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I) The aim of the movement is to address the decline in faith in
>>>>>> elected politicians apparent in the UK. The way of addressing this is to
>>>>>> create a new government of non-politicians, working from a
>>>>>> consensus-defined manifesto, to undertake the governing of the UK.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> II) In practical terms the goal of the movement is to facilitate the
>>>>>> election of members of the public to act as Members of Parliament in the
>>>>>> formation of a government in 2015.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> III) The movement believes that these MPs will be bound by the
>>>>>> following conditions:
>>>>>> They agree to stand for one term only.
>>>>>> They agree to adhere to the manifesto which is created following the
>>>>>> completion of the public Policy Meetings.
>>>>>> They are entirely transparent in the business they undertake as an
>>>>>> elected MP. This means (but is not restricted to) transparency in expenses,
>>>>>> meetings with third parties, schedule of local surgeries.
>>>>>> They act in the interests of the people who elected them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> c) Our values
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I) The movement is more than simply a grassroots reaction to
>>>>>> public grievances regarding the state of current politics. Far more
>>>>>> importantly, the movement aims to imbue and reinforce within the political
>>>>>> system certain fundamental values which it believes will morally strengthen
>>>>>> it, thereby making it as efficient and democratic as possible.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> i) The integrity of the parliamentary system: Although the
>>>>>> movement at the outset expounds no particular view as to how this system
>>>>>> should work, leaving the possibility of structural and/or electoral reform
>>>>>> for the policy groups to deliberate upon, the movement is unanimous in its
>>>>>> belief in the need to strengthen the institution of parliament.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ii) Objectivity: The movement does not view any issue through an
>>>>>> ideological prism as would a political party of either the left or the
>>>>>> right. Therefore, it is uniquely placed to formulate policies that are
>>>>>> determined by the common sense of ordinary people rather than by the
>>>>>> ideological prejudices of traditional political parties. The country’s
>>>>>> interests are not to be subservient to the movement’s agenda; the
>>>>>> movement’s agenda is to be shaped according to the country’s interests.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> iii) Honesty: Loyalty to the truth is a fundamental value of this
>>>>>> movement for two reasons. Firstly, in keeping with objectivity, a
>>>>>> non-ideologically charged, purely evidence-based appraisal of the United
>>>>>> Kingdom’s challenges is the only assurance of a truly rational, and thus a
>>>>>> truly effective, approach to addressing them. Secondly, this value is
>>>>>> central to governmental legitimacy. Indeed, honest politicians would in
>>>>>> time gain the electorate’s respect, confidence and trust which would in
>>>>>> turn provide parliament as a whole with a constant moral underpinning for
>>>>>> its deliberations and decisions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> iv) Broad electoral participation: Noting a steady decline in
>>>>>> turnout to elections since the 1950s, the movement, through its appeal to
>>>>>> the general public to formulate the movement’s manifesto, hopes that this
>>>>>> will be followed up in 2015 by a renewed desire amongst apathetic members
>>>>>> of the population to vote in the general election of that year. From
>>>>>> there, we hope that such a renewed political interest amongst these
>>>>>> citizens will be maintained in all future elections.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> v) Transparency: The movement’s insistence that politicians be
>>>>>> transparent naturally requires the movement to adhere to this principle
>>>>>> itself. Therefore, in all its dealings, the movement will answer in a
>>>>>> straightforward manner all questions concerning the mechanics of its
>>>>>> day-to-day working as well as all questions concerning its goals.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> vi) Accountability to a broad public: Although the movement
>>>>>> recognises that lobbying is part of the democratic process, it is only
>>>>>> proper that current guidelines regulating this practice be more strictly
>>>>>> enforced than they have been or, if necessary, be revised in favour of more
>>>>>> rigorous rules. This is to ensure that unrepresentative groups and
>>>>>> individuals cannot have a monopoly of access to, and/or influence over, our
>>>>>> politicians at the expense of the interests and concerns of the broad
>>>>>> public.
>>>>>> Sent from phone
>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>> *From: *marknbarrett at googlemail.com
>>>>>> *Date: *Fri, 5 Oct 2012 21:48:16 +0000
>>>>>> *To: *KIDD STUDIOS<kiddstudios at googlemail.com>
>>>>>> *ReplyTo: *marknbarrett at googlemail.com
>>>>>> *Cc: *<rdwg at googlegroups.com>; Josh Gartland<spiralfish26 at yahoo.com>;
>>>>>> Julie Occupy<julieoccupy at gmail.com>; occupylondon at groupspaces.com<
>>>>>> OccupyLondon at groupspaces.com>; lsxcampeconomics at googlegroups.com<
>>>>>> lsxcampeconomics at googlegroups.com>; <activerdwg at googlegroups.com>
>>>>>> *Subject: *Re: [Occupy London] Re: [rdwg] Debate about Party /
>>>>>> Electoral Coalition Building ( while keeping our autonomy intact!!! )
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello Ben
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Your suggestion makes sense to me.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Btw, did you see this Invitation to set up local meetings Shift
>>>>>> Alliance (for jobs and climate):
>>>>>> http://jobsandclimate.org/invitation-to-set-up-meetings-in-your-area/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also - for info I've arranged a provisional meeting with Andreas
>>>>>> Whittam Smith next Thurs. Will probably go with Harpreet of IOPs and plan
>>>>>> to focus on horizontality and transparency of whole project. And the ideal
>>>>>> of an alternative coalition ;)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Everyone feel free to message me any input.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Have a great weekend everyon
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And pls don't forget to join and share FB event for next Wed Global
>>>>>> Twitter Campaign #GlobalNoise at
>>>>>> https://www.facebook.com/events/336606239769070/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Great idea Vica!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mark
>>>>>> Sent from phone
>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>> *From: *KIDD STUDIOS <kiddstudios at googlemail.com>
>>>>>> *Date: *Fri, 5 Oct 2012 21:12:50 +0100
>>>>>> *To: *<marknbarrett at googlemail.com>
>>>>>> *Cc: *<rdwg at googlegroups.com>; Josh Gartland<spiralfish26 at yahoo.com>;
>>>>>> Julie Occupy<julieoccupy at gmail.com>; occupylondon at groupspaces.com<
>>>>>> OccupyLondon at groupspaces.com>; lsxcampeconomics at googlegroups.com<
>>>>>> lsxcampeconomics at googlegroups.com>; <activerdwg at googlegroups.com>
>>>>>> *Subject: *Re: [Occupy London] Re: [rdwg] Debate about Party /
>>>>>> Electoral Coalition Building ( while keeping our autonomy intact!!! )
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Are there ny objections to me reposting this thread publicly over
>>>>>> at Occupy Brighton? I have started a discussion about the original
>>>>>> statement proposal - (the one expressing cautious support..)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm now thinking the statement would be stronger if it took an
>>>>>> ancillary role in rallying all relevant orgs, rather than just D2015 -
>>>>>> though this was the most obvious place to start. The
>>>>>> discussion/crits/concerns voiced here would be useful to share/discuss imo.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We have a meeting 2moz - how long should I wait for a response before
>>>>>> assuming there are no objections to me sharing everybody's thoughts on the
>>>>>> subject?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Solidarity
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ben (Occupy Brighton)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 20 September 2012 18:21, Mark Barrett <marknbarrett at googlemail.com
>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Here is the D2015 Newsletter as PDF
>>>>>>> http://www.democracy2015.co.uk/newsletters/newsletter1.pdf
>>>>>>> also available at their blog
>>>>>>> <http://www.democracy2015.co.uk/newsletters/newsletter1.pdf>
>>>>>>> http://www.democracy2015.co.uk/blog.php
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 20 September 2012 08:18, Mark Barrett <
>>>>>>> marknbarrett at googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> hi julie and everyone
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> to take forward a potentially important albeit fledgling debate on
>>>>>>>> the andreas whittam-smith project, i want to introduce josh gartland from
>>>>>>>> d2015 democracy 2015 volunteer team. welcome josh.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> please note i have not subscribed him to the email lists as i don't
>>>>>>>> want to overwhelm him with occupy london stuff so pls ensure he is copied
>>>>>>>> in to any replies on this thread. aswell as julie and myself we also have
>>>>>>>> ben kidd and anna harris from brighton and hebden bridge respectively, now
>>>>>>>> subscribed on the list who are interested in this discussion about d2015.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> here is the d2015 fb group
>>>>>>>> http://www.facebook.com/groups/democracy2015/#!/groups/democracy2015/
>>>>>>>> to which everyone is invited to participate in.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> and some other links
>>>>>>>> www.democracy2015.co.uk
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://www.independent.co.uk/democracy2015
>>>>>>>> https://twitter.com/Democracy2015
>>>>>>>> http://www.facebook.com/Democracy2015
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> and to help frame the debate here is a statement that occupy
>>>>>>>> brighton have put forward for our (london) comments.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Occupy Brighton (insert London, UK if/when apt) support the stated
>>>>>>>> aspirations of Andreas Whittam-Smith & Democracy 2015. While we are still
>>>>>>>> concerned by issues of transparency, accountability and accessibility, we
>>>>>>>> applaud their ongoing efforts to address these concerns.
>>>>>>>> We see D2015 as an opportunity to further Occupy's agenda from
>>>>>>>> within the establishment, without compromising our anti-establishment
>>>>>>>> principles. Occupy UK could meet D2015's need for regional representation,
>>>>>>>> whilst operating as a legitimate watchdog for transparency and
>>>>>>>> accountability.
>>>>>>>> We encourage all Occupy supporters to investigate the campaign and
>>>>>>>> to feed back their thoughts and feelings via respective Occupy and D2015
>>>>>>>> comms."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> you can read the discussion, for what it is so far, below. i will
>>>>>>>> also send their newsletter once i get it in a manageable format (it's too
>>>>>>>> big a file to send to lists at the moment).in the meantime pls note that
>>>>>>>> the campaign plan is for a series of democratically run round tables
>>>>>>>> starting in manchester on oct 15 and then going to birmingham and london to
>>>>>>>> decide values, policies and way forward. josh and others who i have met are
>>>>>>>> very interested in occupy skills set / support in the process of running
>>>>>>>> these events which as i understand it are effectively aimed at being
>>>>>>>> assembly based initiatives ... :)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> hope to hear from other people on this soon.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> #solidarity
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> mark
>>>>>>>> ps if anyone with the skills is interested to support d2015 they
>>>>>>>> are looking for someone to put a php forum on their new web-site, pls get
>>>>>>>> in touch if you could fix that for them...
>>>>>>>> On 17 September 2012 13:14, Julie Occupy <julieoccupy at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Found an article in The Independent - who seem to be leading
>>>>>>>>> campaign . pasted below .
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> My initial thoughts are :
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This is a good development and indicative that a civil rights
>>>>>>>>> movement for real democracy and constitutional reform is gathering momentum
>>>>>>>>> with more mainstream support .
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Something similar happened , and is happening , in Iceland with
>>>>>>>>> left field parties popping up for election
>>>>>>>>> with a constitutional reform agenda.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I like the emphasis on time limited representatives from the
>>>>>>>>> community and building a grass roots participative process .
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I have concerns the emphasis seems to be very much on middle
>>>>>>>>> class representation - rather than broad based representation across social
>>>>>>>>> classes , ethnicity , disability , gender etc . I think we need an
>>>>>>>>> awareness of who our present political economy privileges, and in any
>>>>>>>>> movement be careful not to replicate structural disadvantage and
>>>>>>>>> oppression .
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I think the article vastly over states the power of parliament -
>>>>>>>>> but maybe this is to build hope and momentum for the campaign .
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This new movement , and Occupy , are probably both actors in a pre
>>>>>>>>> figurative movement for peaceful revolutionary change and as such I think
>>>>>>>>> we should build links .
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In the "Pots and Pans and other things " documentary from Iceland
>>>>>>>>> a women working on process for participative constitutional reform said
>>>>>>>>> this can only work if the establishment feel and hear the pressure for
>>>>>>>>> change on the streets .
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *How you can bring our ailing democracy back to life *
>>>>>>>>> *Yesterday, Andreas Whittam Smith, founder of The Independent,
>>>>>>>>> announced a bold plan for a new political movement to restore British
>>>>>>>>> democracy. Here he unveils an initial manifesto for Democracy 2015 – and
>>>>>>>>> explains how you can get involved*
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Andreas Whittam Smith with members of the Democracy 2015 team. The
>>>>>>>>> movement aims to return political power to ordinary people
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Susannah Ireland
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *Related articles*
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> - *Andreas Whittam Smith: Our democracy is desperately sick.
>>>>>>>>> This is your chance to help save it*<http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/andreas-whittam-smith-our-democracy-is-desperately-sick-this-is-your-chance-to-help-save-it-8102862.html>
>>>>>>>>> **
>>>>>>>>> - *Clegg determined to drive through House of Lords reforms*<http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/clegg-determined-to-drive-through-house-of-lords-reforms-7447299.html>
>>>>>>>>> - *Peers and MPs reject Clegg's plans to cut size of the
>>>>>>>>> Lords by a half*<http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/peers-and-mps-reject-cleggs-plans-to-cut-size-of-the-lords-by-a-half-6285642.html>
>>>>>>>>> - *David Cameron to go ahead on boundary changes*<http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-cameron-to-go-ahead-on-boundary-changes-8015229.html>
>>>>>>>>> - *Phillip Blond: Electing the Lords would undermine its
>>>>>>>>> value*<http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/phillip-blond-electing-the-lords-would-undermine-its-value-7628079.html>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Fact One: respect for our democratic arrangements is in sharp
>>>>>>>>> decline. We no longer vote at general elections in the numbers that we used
>>>>>>>>> to do. We trust members of Parliament and the governments they form less
>>>>>>>>> and less. Despair with the system was vividly expressed by the protesters
>>>>>>>>> camped outside St Paul's Cathedral in London.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Fact Two: the politicians we criticise weren't parachuted into
>>>>>>>>> Westminster from another planet. We voted for them. Once they were like us.
>>>>>>>>> Now they have morphed into a political class. But they do not rule by
>>>>>>>>> divine right. We could change them. The next election is due to take place on
>>>>>>>>> 7 May 2015.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The answer to our predicament is not to turn away from Parliament
>>>>>>>>> but to strengthen it. Parliament is as old as the nation. It grew out of
>>>>>>>>> the great national assemblies that emerged in early 10th-century Britain.
>>>>>>>>> It is part of our genetic inheritance. It is one of the things that make us
>>>>>>>>> the country we are. And because we do not have a written constitution, the
>>>>>>>>> British Parliament is unusually powerful compared with legislatures
>>>>>>>>> elsewhere in the world. It could, for instance, repeal the Acts that ceded
>>>>>>>>> certain responsibilities to European institutions.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Moreover all the power that we citizens actually have at our
>>>>>>>>> disposal is in the Palace of Westminster. So that is where people who want
>>>>>>>>> to change things have to direct their attention. Or, more precisely, those
>>>>>>>>> who want to change things have to secure the election of candidates to the
>>>>>>>>> House of Commons who represent their views. And they have to do so on a
>>>>>>>>> scale that counts. The election of a few stray independent members would
>>>>>>>>> achieve little.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What is being described here is an exceedingly challenging task
>>>>>>>>> that takes us into the realm of the near impossible. But in politics, the
>>>>>>>>> near impossible can happen. Perhaps the near impossible is more frequent
>>>>>>>>> now. Barack Obama became President. The Rev Ian Paisley and Martin
>>>>>>>>> McGuinness became colleagues in Northern Ireland. We acquired a coalition
>>>>>>>>> government. Unelected technocrats are now the Prime Ministers of Greece and
>>>>>>>>> Italy.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The problem is that the entrance to the House of Commons is narrow
>>>>>>>>> and access difficult. The established political parties largely control
>>>>>>>>> elections. This is how parliamentary democracies work. It is their default
>>>>>>>>> mode. And in a first-past-the-post electoral system, the old parties
>>>>>>>>> operate with deadly efficiency. Their system is effective.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It might, however, be worked around. Let us consider how this
>>>>>>>>> could be done and then what would be the essential preparatory work.
>>>>>>>>> Suppose a large group of like-minded citizens could be persuaded to stand
>>>>>>>>> for Parliament for one term only. They would have been pursuing demanding
>>>>>>>>> careers, such as being the head of a large school or running a charity or
>>>>>>>>> getting a new business under way or directing a trade union. They would
>>>>>>>>> have done something with their lives, and have established themselves in
>>>>>>>>> their communities.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Their qualifications would be different from those of the current
>>>>>>>>> membership of the House of Commons. When politicians reach the top, their
>>>>>>>>> "skill set" is limited to marketing themselves and their parties to the
>>>>>>>>> electorate. Many of them are brilliant people, but there is not much else
>>>>>>>>> they have experience of doing. Some 90 members of the present parliament,
>>>>>>>>> for instance, have spent their entire working lives in politics, often
>>>>>>>>> starting off in their party research departments. And if you then add in
>>>>>>>>> occupations that, while filled with brilliant practitioners, do not
>>>>>>>>> generally involve significant management responsibilities such as the law,
>>>>>>>>> medicine, teaching and journalism, you have accounted for half the House of
>>>>>>>>> Commons. Yet these people have a government to run, or hope to do so in the
>>>>>>>>> future.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> However, when non-politicians who have run things whether for
>>>>>>>>> profit or not reach the top, they will have become competent in a range of
>>>>>>>>> solid activities, things you have to be able to do whether you are running
>>>>>>>>> a business or a charity –creating new services and products, financial
>>>>>>>>> planning, harnessing of technology and managing substantial numbers of
>>>>>>>>> employees. As a result, they are much better equipped for the tasks of
>>>>>>>>> government than the average politician.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There would be another difference. Professional politicians have
>>>>>>>>> but one object in mind, winning the next general election. They are engaged
>>>>>>>>> in non-stop electioneering from the morning following victory or defeat at
>>>>>>>>> the polls until the next general election. They feel that they must do
>>>>>>>>> whatever it takes to stay in office or regain it. The new members, the
>>>>>>>>> one-term-only cohort, would be mercifully free of these distorting
>>>>>>>>> pressures.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Their task, assuming they were returned in sufficiently large
>>>>>>>>> numbers, would be single-mindedly to put right as many things as possible
>>>>>>>>> that governments formed by the traditional parties had failed to resolve.
>>>>>>>>> Then these temporary MPs would stand down when their single term was
>>>>>>>>> finished. As a consequence, they would have had to so frame their mission
>>>>>>>>> that it could be completed in five years. That would have been one of their
>>>>>>>>> promises to the electorate and part of their attraction. They would not be
>>>>>>>>> politicians but they would have been elected in the classic manner. Their
>>>>>>>>> democratic legitimacy would be at least equal to that of the present
>>>>>>>>> members of the House of Commons.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> However, without making the enormous and unprecedented effort to
>>>>>>>>> create a new, national vote-winning organisation, not a single new-style
>>>>>>>>> candidate is going to be elected, let alone a sufficient number to
>>>>>>>>> participate in the government of the country. And that is precisely why the
>>>>>>>>> moment to start is now, with still nearly three years available for
>>>>>>>>> preparation. But where to begin?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What is first required is participative policy making, lasting a
>>>>>>>>> year, and using the digital media to ensure openness and legitimacy. The
>>>>>>>>> purpose would be to discuss and decide what the next government should
>>>>>>>>> do – in detail, with expert advice, not neglecting constitutional reform,
>>>>>>>>> working in groups, capable of being boiled down into a series of measures
>>>>>>>>> that the electorate would find attractive.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This would not be so difficult as it sounds. Ideological
>>>>>>>>> differences are small these days, even between the established parties,
>>>>>>>>> which often magnify what are in effect small distinctions to make
>>>>>>>>> themselves stand out. The exercise would be unusual only in the sense that
>>>>>>>>> no difficult subjects would be avoided, everything would be upfront and
>>>>>>>>> open, no surprises, no hidden agenda.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Then, as this work progressed, and more and more individuals with
>>>>>>>>> contributions to make were drawn into it, and news of what was being
>>>>>>>>> undertaken began to spread, it is likely that people would emerge who were
>>>>>>>>> so committed to what was being proposed that they would stand for
>>>>>>>>> Parliament to try to carry through the programme. They would see it as a
>>>>>>>>> worthwhile public duty, not a career. But unless a start is made now, we
>>>>>>>>> shall never get to that point.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *If ordinary people are to reclaim politics from the party
>>>>>>>>> elites, ordinary people need to take action. This is how they – and
>>>>>>>>> you – can do so...*
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If you would like to be involoved in our project and participate
>>>>>>>>> in developing these ideas, please email the team at*
>>>>>>>>> democracy2015 at independent.co.uk* <democracy2015 at independent.co.uk>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> From your message, we would be grateful to learn:
>>>>>>>>> a. The town or village where you live and the name of your
>>>>>>>>> parliamentary constituency. That will help us to plan events and meetings.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> b. What you consider to be the government policies that most need
>>>>>>>>> redoing. That would help set the agenda for the writing of a manifesto.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> c. How you would like to help. That could be either in thinking
>>>>>>>>> through issues or in helping to organise the process. The two tasks are
>>>>>>>>> equally daunting, and there is much to be done for each –for instance, in
>>>>>>>>> chairing meetings, setting up groups, taking notes, contacting and
>>>>>>>>> recruiting experts.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> d. Whether you would support the principle of making a small
>>>>>>>>> contribution from time to time to keep the work going, a maximum of £50.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Our objective is to obtain a majority in the next House of
>>>>>>>>> Commons. The members so elected would declare that they intended to serve
>>>>>>>>> only one term. While I have described this target in The Independent as
>>>>>>>>> "near impossible", as indeed it is, I cannot see the point of aiming at
>>>>>>>>> anything less if the intention is to make a difference. The ideas below are
>>>>>>>>> correspondingly bold.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What next? It is easy to point to the failures of the existing
>>>>>>>>> system, but what would success look like? Our aspiration is that by the
>>>>>>>>> next general election, we will have achieved the following:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 1. A group of candidates would have announced easy-to-understand
>>>>>>>>> policies for the problems people worry most about, such as unemployment,
>>>>>>>>> crime, immigration, care of old people, NHS, welfare reform, Europe.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2. It would have connected with the young and made them an
>>>>>>>>> integral part of the campaign.
>>>>>>>>> 3. It would have adopted a consultative style in policy making
>>>>>>>>> that it would carry through into government.
>>>>>>>>> 4. It would have staged primary elections in every constituency,
>>>>>>>>> 650 of them, to choose its candidates a year before the general election
>>>>>>>>> due to be held on 7 May 2015. This would have enabled its
>>>>>>>>> candidates to have spent at least a year working in their constituencies
>>>>>>>>> and become well known locally. Constituency primaries would have been big
>>>>>>>>> events.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 5. It would have found a credible leader and candidates capable of
>>>>>>>>> running the departments of state if elected. In other words, it would have
>>>>>>>>> become a "Government-in-Waiting".
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 6. It would have achieved regular coverage in the national media.
>>>>>>>>> 7. It would have convincingly attacked the incompetence of the
>>>>>>>>> traditional political parties when in government.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 17 Sep 2012, at 10:57, Julie Occupy <julieoccupy at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi Mark
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Could you put a little more information about D2015 Democracy
>>>>>>>>> 2015on here and specifically what they are calling for on the list .
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I can't access the Facebook page from my iPhone and quite a few
>>>>>>>>> members of rdwg don't use Facebook at all.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 17 Sep 2012, at 10:02, Mark Barrett <
>>>>>>>>> marknbarrett at googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Dear Everyone
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This may have slipped you all by - or maybe not but the following
>>>>>>>>> statement has been prepared and is supported (but not publically) by Occupy
>>>>>>>>> Brighton. It relates to the question of the D2015 Democracy2015 initiative
>>>>>>>>> of Andreas Whittam-Smith and others which you may have read about.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I met with some of the D2015 team on Friday, and there are some
>>>>>>>>> comments on this set out below the statement along with words from Anna
>>>>>>>>> Harris from Occupy Manchester who attended the Pirate Party conference in
>>>>>>>>> London yesterday, and Ben in Brighton ( we all have somewhat similar - and
>>>>>>>>> big - concerns but also a sense of real possibility via mutually supportive
>>>>>>>>> activities hence our conversation). Both Anna and Ben are cc'd and probably
>>>>>>>>> a good idea to add them to the main OL groupspace list so they can
>>>>>>>>> participate fully in the debate.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Anna and Ben you may also wish to join the rdwg ( ie real
>>>>>>>>> democracy) and lsxcampeconomics googlegroups which are also cc'd, open
>>>>>>>>> access and possible sites of good discussion on this crucial topic.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The D2015 FB group is at
>>>>>>>>> http://www.facebook.com/groups/149760215140893/#!/groups/democracy2015/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Please can people comment?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Best wishes
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Mark
>>>>>>>>> Re Democracy2015 FYI / Response
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Occupy Brighton are happy with this statement - holding fire for
>>>>>>>>> feedback from London. Would be good to get it out sooner rather than later
>>>>>>>>> methinks...It seems D2015 are stalling quite badly and need help getting
>>>>>>>>> their sh*t together.
>>>>>>>>> "Occupy Brighton (insert London, UK if/when apt) support the
>>>>>>>>> stated aspirations of Andreas Whittam-Smith & Democracy 2015. While we are
>>>>>>>>> still concerned by issues of transparency, accountability and
>>>>>>>>> accessibility, we applaud their ongoing efforts to address these concerns.
>>>>>>>>> We see D2015 as an opportunity to further Occupy's agenda from
>>>>>>>>> within the establishment, without compromising our anti-establishment
>>>>>>>>> principles. Occupy UK could meet D2015's need for regional representation,
>>>>>>>>> whilst operating as a legitimate watchdog for transparency and
>>>>>>>>> accountability.
>>>>>>>>> We encourage all Occupy supporters to investigate the campaign and
>>>>>>>>> to feed back their thoughts and feelings via respective Occupy and D2015
>>>>>>>>> comms."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Conversation in reverse latest at top earliest at bottom
>>>>>>>>> Hello Anna and Ben
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks for the emails -- need time to reply properly but just
>>>>>>>>> wanted to say on the Living Wage /Citizen's Income side - imo this is
>>>>>>>>> really good stuff - i agree that CI and work related issues should be at
>>>>>>>>> the heart of the project(s). Harry Shutt btw used to be working with the
>>>>>>>>> Occuopy LSX Econmisc Group
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'd only like to add that if assembly institutions (to be
>>>>>>>>> developed / encourage by possible coalition !) could be linked into this,
>>>>>>>>> as representative, watchdog and policy driver (as suggested by Ben) but
>>>>>>>>> also with - in the context of work - the position of horizontally driven
>>>>>>>>> disburser of monies / other welfare services at the local level (in
>>>>>>>>> addition to CI) then people could be incentivised to develop their work
>>>>>>>>> life in collaboration with their neighbours / other local peeps ( ie local
>>>>>>>>> institutions employ and support individuals and groupings of individuals
>>>>>>>>> to do what they themselves desire to to as checked and agreed by local
>>>>>>>>> assembly of their choice as a new form of public employment ) so liberating
>>>>>>>>> people from the humiliating doles vs crap job dichotomy and growing a new
>>>>>>>>> community based economy. and this could begin to tap into the Welfare
>>>>>>>>> reform stuff as money while crucial for people's well being financially is
>>>>>>>>> nevertheless presently not spent well ( and we spend 180 billion or so on
>>>>>>>>> DSS related stuff don't we?)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This stuff about the future of work should be a key debate at PP,
>>>>>>>>> D2015 and also involving Occupy .
>>>>>>>>> i blogged about it in a rudimentary way here
>>>>>>>>> http://righttowork.org.uk/2011/07/real-democracy-and-the-future-of-work/apols if the post is so basic as to be basically rubbish but i know that
>>>>>>>>> Anna and I conversed positively on this a few months back.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As i said the guys at 2015 were interested in a debate on work
>>>>>>>>> hours ( i want a 3 day weekend - it just feels right as a bare minimum for
>>>>>>>>> those that work conventional hours) so maybe this can all be linked
>>>>>>>>> together under work which in the future must become dignified humane and
>>>>>>>>> liberaating for all yeah
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Speak again soon sorry if incoherent massive rush.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Love
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Mark
>>>>>>>>> On 17 September 2012 07:24, Anna Harris wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Hi Both,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> One interesting possible policy which I discussed with PP is
>>>>>>>>> Citizen's income, which there is talk of including in their manifesto. Not
>>>>>>>>> everyone agrees, but Rik the swedish founder of the party, John and Harry
>>>>>>>>> Shutt, who spoke on the economy panel, are passionate supporters. My
>>>>>>>>> discussion with John about CI arose because he mentioned that 'full
>>>>>>>>> employment is a thing of the past', which is such an expression of old
>>>>>>>>> economic thinking. When challenged he was quick to move from there to an
>>>>>>>>> understanding that our whole attitude to 'work' has to change.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The Green party has recently produced a book by Clive Lord
>>>>>>>>> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Citizens-Income-Foundation-Sustainable-World/dp/1897766874
>>>>>>>>> I think if we took this as our focus it would deal with 'living
>>>>>>>>> wage' mentioned by Ben without it being tied to senseless work.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I realise this would be very radical for D2015, but apparently the
>>>>>>>>> present government has proposed something like a universal pension. Harry
>>>>>>>>> Shutt started to tell me something about it. I will get more details. I
>>>>>>>>> think D2015 needs to be prepared to propose something as radical as CI in
>>>>>>>>> order to get off the ground, to tackle vast inequalities through a
>>>>>>>>> restructuring of the basic economy. This has to be bold if it is to capture
>>>>>>>>> public imagination. We also need to work out in detail how this can become
>>>>>>>>> real, ie how much it would cost and where the money is to come from, which
>>>>>>>>> may already have been worked out in the book. I will contact Clive and
>>>>>>>>> Harry to work on this. It could be something which will bring together
>>>>>>>>> Pirates, Greens, and D2015.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Love you both, Anna
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 9:38 PM, Ben wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Whoa - lot to digest - sounds positive. :) I have some immediate
>>>>>>>>> thoughts/responses, but need to wake up properly, eat some
>>>>>>>>> food/reread/process all this and get back to you in detail.
>>>>>>>>> quickly though cos it's exciting...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> re: middle class policies - absolutely agree with Anna. Fair
>>>>>>>>> rents, Living wage are the two universally understandable/communicable big
>>>>>>>>> carrots/incentives - Strongest UK policies to plug as far as I see it,
>>>>>>>>> though obviously the policy problem is more complicated than a simple class
>>>>>>>>> divide.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The reason the policies D2015 (and Occupy) are middle class is
>>>>>>>>> because by and large the only people with any faith left in participatory
>>>>>>>>> democracy's capacity for reform ARE pretty middle class. We need to
>>>>>>>>> persuade the middle class that actually we should be focused on the
>>>>>>>>> perspectives of those not yet actively involved in the debate: the cynical
>>>>>>>>> Old Guard, the Working Class and our burgeoning Underclass AND the elite.
>>>>>>>>> We need to persuade these "demographics" that participatory democracy has
>>>>>>>>> merit before we can really move forward. This means the GAs/WGs will have
>>>>>>>>> to be brilliantly organised with a focus on inclusivity and direct
>>>>>>>>> action...one universal reason the movement has struggled to move forward is
>>>>>>>>> the island mentality - combined with a scarcity of time and a reluctance to
>>>>>>>>> risk wasting what time we have on futile ventures. We need more practical,
>>>>>>>>> safe, fun and immediately actionable proposals imvho.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Feedback all sounds really positive from D2015 an PP - well done
>>>>>>>>> for getting there guys, wish I could have come.
>>>>>>>>> got to go eat, will get backatcha again soon
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Brighton are scheming for a GA on Sunday opposite the Lib Dem
>>>>>>>>> Party Conf @the Brighton Centre - we will be discussing D2015, the Brighton
>>>>>>>>> text...and Re-Occupy of course. would be greatr of you could help us rally
>>>>>>>>> for it. Debate about tactics/press release here:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://www.facebook.com/notes/occupy-brighton/general-assembly-23rd-sep-2012-press-release-draft-11/409562975774780?notif_t=note_comment
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Much thanks for all you both do/have done/are doing - solidarity,
>>>>>>>>> speak soon.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 16 September 2012 00:07, <marknbarrett at googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Hello Ben and Anna
>>>>>>>>> I'm writing to you both because you're the ones whose ideas and
>>>>>>>>> comments I relayed to the D2015 people yesterday evening.
>>>>>>>>> Ben is from Occupy Brighton (who have prepared a statement
>>>>>>>>> cautiously optimistic and supportive of D2015) and Anna from Hebden Bridge,
>>>>>>>>> active on the global networks and presently attending the Pirate Party
>>>>>>>>> national conference in London. As both of you are top lovely peeps do say
>>>>>>>>> hello if you feel like a nice exchange :)
>>>>>>>>> I met briefly with Andreas Whittam-Smith (the Indie founder and
>>>>>>>>> main person behind D2015) and for about an hour with Will Wytham and Luke
>>>>>>>>> (not sure of surname) from his young team of volunteers.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> All three were extremely warm and keen to learn / get info and
>>>>>>>>> ideas and constructive criticism on the way forward including possible
>>>>>>>>> stumbling blocks in terms of possibly working with Occupy. Also they really
>>>>>>>>> appreciated your input on the FB group Ben :)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> They were definitely interested in possibility of an alternative
>>>>>>>>> coalition ie maybe working with the Pirates, Greens, charities and so forth
>>>>>>>>> as you've suggested Ben. They were also fully aware and concerned about
>>>>>>>>> issues of transparency, accessibility and accountability (again, from Ben)
>>>>>>>>> as well as the need for non-elite candidates, a less middle class policy
>>>>>>>>> list (Anna), local assemblies as possible representative bodies and
>>>>>>>>> watchdogs (Ben) and the global angle.
>>>>>>>>> We discussed at length how there might be a fantastic synergy
>>>>>>>>> between the grassroots autonomous and the party approach run on radically
>>>>>>>>> different lines, about the need for local community engagement via Occupy
>>>>>>>>> style processes, traditional door knocking and other new approaches
>>>>>>>>> including the use of social media. I also mentioned the idea of running a
>>>>>>>>> populist FB campaign for a 4 day working week to drum up support and
>>>>>>>>> interest and they liked the idea of focusing policy on working hours a lot.
>>>>>>>>> I filled them in on October plans, and -i/we/they noted their
>>>>>>>>> first round table meeting due to take place in Manchester (and which they
>>>>>>>>> are open to running on horizontal lines) is on the potentially interesting
>>>>>>>>> date of Oct15.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As I understand it the round tables which start on the 15th before
>>>>>>>>> continuing in Birmingham London and presumably tbc elsewhere will be to
>>>>>>>>> work out a values statement and start the process of policy development
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> They hope to send someone to the Pirate conference tomorrow but
>>>>>>>>> not sure. I hope to be there myself but not sure yet as it's my birthday
>>>>>>>>> and there is some pressure to stay with the family (from my 3 children and
>>>>>>>>> partner) as you might understand.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> However whatever the case I think they will want to explore
>>>>>>>>> collaboration so do please take that message forward Anna if you are
>>>>>>>>> willing. And I will certainly call you to see if there's anything more I
>>>>>>>>> can assist you with or maybe give you Will's number to pass on to a
>>>>>>>>> relevant Pirate or perhaps get in touch yourself. One possibility for
>>>>>>>>> coalition building is to convene and open spokes-council to explore the
>>>>>>>>> idea and invite participation from Pirates, Occupy, Greens, other relevant
>>>>>>>>> parties, pressure groups, charities / NGOs. What do you think Ben ?
>>>>>>>>> From my side I will be sending D2015 a list of useful social media
>>>>>>>>> platforms (plus encouraging a transparent email list or series of lists for
>>>>>>>>> the project) and also some policy stuff from Occupy London (policy from
>>>>>>>>> the grassroots to drive policy implementation from a new coalition ) and
>>>>>>>>> hopefully will manage to get them meeting some good Occupy London people
>>>>>>>>> next week or the week after.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Know I've missed stuff but that's all I can recall now.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> About statement I will remind London list to comment and let you
>>>>>>>>> know what comes back. Anna will cc you in.
>>>>>>>>> More later - happy to hear your thoughts.
>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>> Mark
>>>>>>>>> Sent from phone
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> From: Anna Harris
>>>>>>>>> Subject: PP Meeting today
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi Mark,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Had a very useful meeting up with members of PP international
>>>>>>>>> today. We had a walking tour of central London with pub stops. Rik, the
>>>>>>>>> founder of the PP was there from Sweden. I learned alot about the other
>>>>>>>>> aims of the PP which he says a very aligned to the Green party - as MEPs
>>>>>>>>> they work well together. Eg they would support a basic income. Mostly young
>>>>>>>>> people, very open to discussion.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Tomorrow they will be looking at policy and trying to make
>>>>>>>>> decisions. Much difference of opinion as in Occupy, but this feels good.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I mentioned the D2015 from the Independent. There was some
>>>>>>>>> interest. What did you find out today? Feels like there is much potential
>>>>>>>>> here.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Anna
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Mark: I am meeting with D2015 people on Friday.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And FYI personally I'm also cautiously optimistic, subject to
>>>>>>>>> similar concerns.
>>>>>>>>> Interestingly I've seen no discussion about this at all on the
>>>>>>>>> London networks (although election politics was such a contentious topic
>>>>>>>>> back in Jan-May in run up to Mayoral election as there was an attempt to
>>>>>>>>> co-opt Occupy London so for that reason alone I'm not surprised) but I was
>>>>>>>>> going to raise it this week if no-one else did so your mail is timely. One
>>>>>>>>> D2015 person has already indicated he wants to attend an Occupy London
>>>>>>>>> meeting so it's important this gets handled carefully. Personally am
>>>>>>>>> really happy Brighton is on it. But do hold fire ..
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I will write again later today as soon as I get a moment to read
>>>>>>>>> your mail properly and reflect.
>>>>>>>>> Cheers'
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Brighton contact:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 're: lack of discussion on Occupy comms - I think this could be a
>>>>>>>>> good thing - if D2015 is intended to function as a distraction/co-opt
>>>>>>>>> Occupy would do well to ignore/not divert attention.
>>>>>>>>> That said, we seem to be on the same page re: reserving
>>>>>>>>> judgement/cautious optimism.
>>>>>>>>> Brighton will hold fire on releasing the statement until we hear
>>>>>>>>> back from your good self/other London bods.
>>>>>>>>> Speak soon,'
>>>>>>>>> Me:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 'Don't get the sense it's an attempt to co-opt but there is a
>>>>>>>>> danger it could divert by neutering that aspect of Occupy concerned to
>>>>>>>>> build new democratic institutions. One particular comment by AWS about his
>>>>>>>>> concern re people losing faith in our existing institutions (rather than
>>>>>>>>> getting into them and sorting them out) stood out to me.
>>>>>>>>> Personally I think we need both (new local and regional
>>>>>>>>> institutions as-well as a transformation driven by the grass-roots of the
>>>>>>>>> old ones) and I do get the feeling this is a possibility through the
>>>>>>>>> politics of D2015 combined with Occupy as the Brighton text maintains.
>>>>>>>>> And the concerns about transparency etc identified in the Brighton
>>>>>>>>> text go with this for me.
>>>>>>>>> On first v cursory read would add 'local' to the bit about
>>>>>>>>> regional representation or is that a direct reference to the 2015
>>>>>>>>> statements.
>>>>>>>>> Probably will mail some other London people about it later today
>>>>>>>>> off list did you already mail a few others ?
>>>>>>>>> Will write again asap.'
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 'Agree on all your points. No opinion on "regional" vs "local".
>>>>>>>>> I haven't mailed too many bods yet as I have been concerned about
>>>>>>>>> D2015 as a distraction from our efforts to reOccupy in October.
>>>>>>>>> Ideally I would like to fold the two efforts into each other if
>>>>>>>>> poss....Brighton are hoping to be organised in time for GAs/open planning
>>>>>>>>> meetings to coincide the Lib Dem conference 22nd-26th.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I got in touch with you as you seemed to be the most active on
>>>>>>>>> Occupy comms on our webmail - have only consulted re: D2015with my "circle
>>>>>>>>> of trust" in Brighton & Worthing, also with Occupy London via fb.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We are holding fire until we hear back from everyone we've spoken
>>>>>>>>> with already - it occurs that perhaps we should wait until D2015 have their
>>>>>>>>> infrastructure/relaunch materials sorted?
>>>>>>>>> Cheers fer getting back to us, - are you the same Mark who visited
>>>>>>>>> us with the kind offer of "activist counseling" when we are all burning out
>>>>>>>>> last year btw?
>>>>>>>>> Speak soon - do keep us updated'
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Will reply in a bit to this last one to say the post is now on the
>>>>>>>>> London email list and that it's probably Mark Weaver our friend is
>>>>>>>>> referring to!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Apathy is Dead !
>>>>>>>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/solarider/5254770064/#/photos/solarider/5254770064/lightbox/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Apathy is Dead !
>>>>>>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/solarider/5254770064/#/photos/solarider/5254770064/lightbox/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Apathy is Dead !
>>>>>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/solarider/5254770064/#/photos/solarider/5254770064/lightbox/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Friendly reminder: please keep these mailing list discussions to a
>>>>>>> minimum as they reach a lot of people. Instead you can email working groups
>>>>>>> and individuals directly, or use the Occupy London forum at
>>>>>>> occupylondon . info<http://e.groupspaces.com/click/2foa8-4amu2-3w9ron76x?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.occupylondon.info%2F>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You receive this email as a member of the Occupy London Groupspace<http://e.groupspaces.com/click/2foa8-4amu2-3w9ron76x?u=http%3A%2F%2Fgroupspaces.com%2FOccupyLondon%2F%3Futm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dgroup-listmail%26utm_term%3Dgroup-listmail-64715>.
>>>>>>> Manage your group membership<http://e.groupspaces.com/click/2foa8-4amu2-3w9ron76x?u=http%3A%2F%2Fgroupspaces.com%2Fmy%2Faccount%2F%3Futm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dgroup-listmail%26utm_term%3Dgroup-listmail-64715>or
>>>>>>> unsubscribe<http://e.groupspaces.com/click/2foa8-4amu2-3w9ron76x?u=http%3A%2F%2Fgroupspaces.com%2FOccupyLondon%2Funsubscribe%2F%3Futm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dgroup-listmail%26utm_term%3Dgroup-listmail-64715>
>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> KIDD STUDIOS - Quality Audio Recordings
>>>>>>
>>>>>> www.reverbnation.com/kiddstudios
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Friendly reminder: please keep these mailing list discussions to a
>>>>>> minimum as they reach a lot of people. Instead you can email working groups
>>>>>> and individuals directly, or use the Occupy London forum at
>>>>>> occupylondon . info<http://e.groupspaces.com/click/2hxk6-2rx0r-lhmryzxtn?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.occupylondon.info%2F>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You receive this email as a member of the Occupy London Groupspace<http://e.groupspaces.com/click/2hxk6-2rx0r-lhmryzxtn?u=http%3A%2F%2Fgroupspaces.com%2FOccupyLondon%2F%3Futm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dgroup-listmail%26utm_term%3Dgroup-listmail-64715>.
>>>>>> Manage your group membership<http://e.groupspaces.com/click/2hxk6-2rx0r-lhmryzxtn?u=http%3A%2F%2Fgroupspaces.com%2Fmy%2Faccount%2F%3Futm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dgroup-listmail%26utm_term%3Dgroup-listmail-64715>or
>>>>>> unsubscribe<http://e.groupspaces.com/click/2hxk6-2rx0r-lhmryzxtn?u=http%3A%2F%2Fgroupspaces.com%2FOccupyLondon%2Funsubscribe%2F%3Futm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dgroup-listmail%26utm_term%3Dgroup-listmail-64715>
>>>>>> .
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> KIDD STUDIOS - Quality Audio Recordings
>>>>
>>>> www.reverbnation.com/kiddstudios
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Friendly reminder: please keep these mailing list discussions to a
>>>> minimum as they reach a lot of people. Instead you can email working groups
>>>> and individuals directly, or use the Occupy London forum at
>>>> occupylondon . info<http://e.groupspaces.com/click/2hyck-2kqhs-2m1ovialu6?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.occupylondon.info%2F>
>>>>
>>>> You receive this email as a member of the Occupy London Groupspace<http://e.groupspaces.com/click/2hyck-2kqhs-2m1ovialu6?u=http%3A%2F%2Fgroupspaces.com%2FOccupyLondon%2F%3Futm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dgroup-listmail%26utm_term%3Dgroup-listmail-64715>.
>>>> Manage your group membership<http://e.groupspaces.com/click/2hyck-2kqhs-2m1ovialu6?u=http%3A%2F%2Fgroupspaces.com%2Fmy%2Faccount%2F%3Futm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dgroup-listmail%26utm_term%3Dgroup-listmail-64715>or
>>>> unsubscribe<http://e.groupspaces.com/click/2hyck-2kqhs-2m1ovialu6?u=http%3A%2F%2Fgroupspaces.com%2FOccupyLondon%2Funsubscribe%2F%3Futm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dgroup-listmail%26utm_term%3Dgroup-listmail-64715>
>>>> .
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Apathy is Dead !
>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/solarider/5254770064/#/photos/solarider/5254770064/lightbox/
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Apathy is Dead !
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/solarider/5254770064/#/photos/solarider/5254770064/lightbox/
>
>
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