[Cash-outreach-engagement-circle] MAJ and CASH

Thu Nov 2 16:42:55 GMT 2023

Hi Abigail (and everyone else)

Thanks for your email and it’s my turn to apologise for slow responses, but work and helping a friend and her child sort of took up the last couple of weeks.

The more I think about it I’m not sure if we are interchanging mortgages and loan stock. I think the two are different and how we administer them would be different as well. With loanstock it’s fairly simple in that a newer co-op just borrows money (loanstock) at a certain interest rate and for a specific length of time from a more established coop. I won’t go into detail on loanstock as I’m sure we all know how it works. But generally loanstock is in addition to a mortgage. If this is the case if the coo-p collapsed the mortgage lender has first legal charge on the property and the loanstock would only be paid after the mortgage lender was paid in full. Also, with loanstock the capital amount isn’t paid until the end of the loan period.

With a mortgage it would be slightly different, in that the coop lender would basically be the one giving the mortgage (although it just a loan really). But, the capital would be paid off over the course of the loan along with interest. As the loan reduces each payment the interest payments also go down as the loan is slowly paid off each month. I think we also need to have discussions with others to check coops can actually loan like this and that it doesn’t break any financial rules (ie a coop becoming a bank). It might also be good to see if someone like ICOF could administer the loan (as they do with all the Radical Routes loans).

But maybe these technicalities and questions need to be discussed between us all and then different options put to established coops. Or maybe we just are vague (ish) to get the discussion going.

I think the idea of at some point including CCH in this is definitely worth thinking about.

MAJ is going to discuss more at our meeting this Sunday.

Tony

PS – I haven’t chatted to Shiri from MAJ about this email, so it’s totally in a personal capacity

From: Abigail Hammond | CASH [mailto:abigail.h at ldn.cash] 
Sent: 23 October 2023 12:46
To: Shiri Shalmy <shiri.shalmy at gmail.com>; George Jones | CASH <george.j at ldn.cash>
Cc: Herta Gatter <herta.g at ldn.cash>; Richard Wells <richwells67 at gmail.com>; Tony Wood <woodywood2 at blueyonder.co.uk>; Outreach and Engagement <cash-outreach-engagement-circle at email-lists.org>; francine.holdgate at hotmail.co.uk; Szczepan Orlowski | CASH <szczepan.o at ldn.cash>
Subject: MAJ and CASH

Hi Shiri and Tony,

Please accept my appologies for not responding sooner in writing following our meeting - I had to wait for half term / post CCH conference for head space to do it justice.

So, I don't have any feedback on the concept - brilliant! Essentially, you are talking about Loan Stock, which some co-ops already engage in. I believe there are contract templates in use (Helen Russell, Two Piers HC, Brighton said they have one (enquiries at twopiers.coop <mailto:enquiries at twopiers.coop> ). This site also useful https://www.lexisnexis.co.uk/legal/glossary/loan-stock
However, in presenting, I think it useful to interchange mortgage with / Loan Stock as more people will understand that.

The main thing is presentation - I guess people will be able to show PowerPoint presentations at the event next week? All your figures are great, so to see them simply will be helpful. Shiri - I think you mentioned working on layout?

Just another thought, will it be possible to do the event at Pelican House hybrid? I know people are on the waiting list and also I met good people to invite at the conference? Or maybe keep this one small and build towards another bigger event after feedback / responses on the night? I do think the time is right for invigorating co-ops to help each other and I think CCH can be instrumental in this. Is anyone from CCH coming? Martyn Holmes, the new Chair, is great!

All for now, excited, optimistic and grateful!

Abigail

On Monday, September 18, 2023 14:31 BST, Shiri Shalmy via Cash-outreach-engagement-circle <cash-outreach-engagement-circle at email-lists.org <mailto:cash-outreach-engagement-circle at email-lists.org> > wrote:

Thanks Herta

I can make Friday 29 Sept at 6pm and have put it in my diary.

Will wait for Tony to confirm.

Best,

shiri

Shiri Shalmy

07929 252724

 <https://twitter.com/ShiriShalmy> @ShiriShalmy 

Cooperation Town <https://www.cooperation.town>  //  <http://www.antiuniversity.org/> Antiuniversity Now //  <http://www.cargocollective.com/shirishalmy> Curatorial work

I am a member of the Bakers, Food and Allied Workers Union <https://www.bfawu.org> , of London Renters Union <https://londonrentersunion.org>  and of the London Capital Credit Union <https://credit-union.coop> . Join a union today.

On Mon, 18 Sept 2023 at 13:18, Herta Gatter <herta.g at ldn.cash <mailto:herta.g at ldn.cash> > wrote:

Hi all!

Sorry for the late reply, we were just trying to find a date that works for both the Outreach and Finance Circles. 

If it’s till good, 6-7pm on the 29th of September would be great. 

Address is: House 11, Sanford Housing Co-op, SE14 6NB

Looking forwards to meeting you

Herta Gatter

Outreach and Engagement Circle

Community Assets for Society and Housing
ldn.cash <http://ldn.cash> 

@ldncash

On 12 Sep 2023, at 23:55, Shiri Shalmy <shiri.shalmy at gmail.com <mailto:shiri.shalmy at gmail.com> > wrote:

Thanks Tony and hello Herta

I have also not been to Sanford yet so I am very excited to join the meeting!

Of the dates and times Tony suggested I can make the following:

Wednesday 27th Sept – 12 noon to 7pm

Friday 29th from 12 noon to 7pm

Saturday 14th Oct – any time

Sunday 15th Oct – any time

Hope any of those work for you, Herta.

Best,

shiri

Shiri Shalmy

07929 252724

 <https://twitter.com/ShiriShalmy> @ShiriShalmy 

Cooperation Town <https://www.cooperation.town/>  //  <http://www.antiuniversity.org/> Antiuniversity Now //  <http://www.cargocollective.com/shirishalmy> Curatorial work

I am a member of the Bakers, Food and Allied Workers Union <https://www.bfawu.org/> , of London Renters Union <https://londonrentersunion.org/>  and of the London Capital Credit Union <https://credit-union.coop/> . Join a union today.

On Tue, 12 Sept 2023 at 09:46, Tony Wood <woodywood2 at blueyonder.co.uk <mailto:woodywood2 at blueyonder.co.uk> > wrote:

Hi Herta,

Sorry for the slow response but Jane from MAJ was away then we waited for our next MAJ meeting to discuss.

It will be me and Shiri from MAJ coming down to meet you. I’ve never actually seen Sanford, so would be lovely to come to you. I know Shiri is involved in Anti University (https://2023.antiuniversity.org/) which runs from 30th September to 6th October, so I’ve put dates I can make outside those dates.

Can I leave you and Shiri to say which dates/times you two can make and then we can set a time

I can make

Friday 22nd after 6pm

Sunday 24th Sept – any time

Wednesday 27th Sept – 12 noon to 10pm

Friday 29th from 12 noon to 10pm

Sunday 8th Oct – 11am to 3pm

Saturday 14th Oct – and time

Sunday 15th Oct – any time

Shiri, I can also make some dates during Anti University dates, but just don’t know how manic you will be during it

Tony

From: Herta Gatter [mailto:herta.g at ldn.cash <mailto:herta.g at ldn.cash> ]
Sent: 15 August 2023 10:46
To: woodywood2 at blueyonder.co.uk <mailto:woodywood2 at blueyonder.co.uk> 
Cc: Outreach and Engagement <cash-outreach-engagement-circle at email-lists.org <mailto:cash-outreach-engagement-circle at email-lists.org> >; francine.holdgate at hotmail.co.uk <mailto:francine.holdgate at hotmail.co.uk> ; janelaporte04 at gmail.com <mailto:janelaporte04 at gmail.com> 
Subject: Re: [Cash-outreach-engagement-circle] MAJ and CASH

Hi Tony,

Thanks for getting in touch. That sounds like a super interesting idea we’d love to explore. I am also the Outreach officer at Sanford at the moment and involved in the Loanstock panel too - mentioned to some fellow members they also thought it was a good idea.

Shall we have a meeting in September to discuss? Perhaps you could suggest a few times for a meeting in the second half of the September. I am happy to host at Sanford, or at The Field - would be nice to meet you in person!

All the best,

Herta Gatter

Outreach and Engagement Circle

Community Assets for Society and Housing
ldn.cash <http://ldn.cash/> 

@ldncash

On 9 Aug 2023, at 11:34, Abigail Hammond | CASH via Cash-outreach-engagement-circle <cash-outreach-engagement-circle at email-lists.org <mailto:cash-outreach-engagement-circle at email-lists.org> > wrote:

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: MAJ and CASH
Date: Tuesday, August 08, 2023 17:05 BST
From: "Tony Wood" < <mailto:woodywood2 at blueyonder.co.uk> woodywood2 at blueyonder.co.uk>
To: "'Abigail Hammond | CASH'" < <mailto:abigail.h at ldn.cash> abigail.h at ldn.cash>, < <mailto:francine.holdgate at hotmail.co.uk> francine.holdgate at hotmail.co.uk>
CC: < <mailto:cash-outreach-engaement-circle at email-lists.org> cash-outreach-engaement-circle at email-lists.org>, "Jane Laporte" < <mailto:janelaporte04 at gmail.com> janelaporte04 at gmail.com>

Hi all,

This is Tony from Mary Ann Johnson Housing Co-op (MAJ) in Tottenham.

Some of us in MAJ read your document X and we had an idea to put to you, although it might not be something you want to do, but happy to chat if the idea could fit into what you are looking at.

In the past MAJ has tried to get the very large co-ops (mainly in London) to lend to smaller co-ops (especially those just starting out), but we didn’t really have much luck. To be fair we only mentioned it at one London Federation of Housing Co-op meetings and it was some time ago. We have stayed in contact with the London Fed and try to get to the occasional meetings and have kept our membership up with them. We would really like to see the very large co-ops start lending to smaller co-ops but we think they are scarred they could lose their money (I think some in Sanford might have had the same worries before they started lending, but hopefully they can see MAJ and I think the Drive are both fairly secure loans).

So, we would like to chat with people from CASH (if this helps you) that we put forward that one of the big co-ops actually lends a sizeable amount to MAJ. MAJ would then use this money to pay off one of our mortgages. This would benefit MAJ as we would rather owe a co-op than a bank. MAJ doesn’t actually need to do this and it will be a lot of work convincing a larger co-op to lend (ideally we would want £125,000 but maybe we accept a lot less and also it could be a group of co-ops). The amount doesn’t actually matter. The idea is getting the bigger co-ops to start the discussion. And once they lend to a safe co-op like MAJ (we have a lot of assets (homes) that the loans could be secured against and have paid off quite a bit of mortgages and our house values have risen quite a bit) hopefully we have started the discussion and they will be more open to lending to newer co-ops in London, or at least be open to discussing it.

Very very basically it could work something like this. Say a large co-op presently gets (say) 2% interest on their capital in the bank. Say MAJ pays 8% on its mortgage. MAJ could agree to give a co-op (say) 4%. 

Why should CASH get involved? Well apart from getting big co-ops to lend to smaller ones in London (and therefore helping new co-ops with finance) we are also thinking MAJ could also pay (say) 1 or 2% to CASH. So MAJ pay 6% - large coop gets 4% and CASH gets 1 or 2%. Obviously there would need to be a water tight contract (and this could be used for future loan deal) and the rates would need to be tied to bank rates as if loans went down MAJ wouldn’t want to be worse of that with our present lender. 

Also, and a BIG also, MAJ hasn’t discussed figures and amounts at all. All the figures I’m using, I’m using as just examples. MAJ said I can chat  to CASH and can put some work into this, but we haven’t chatted about figures, percentages, or how much we could/would borrow from a large co-op. To keep this open I’ve also copied in Jane from MAJ, in case she feels I’m over stepping the remit I’ve been given by MAJ.

Anyway, have a read. Digest all my ramblings. And let me know if its anything CASH might be interested in doing.

Tony

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